Heinkel He 51

[Seaplanes]

The last thread on this subject was unfortunately closed and as I had hoped for a fruitful discussion of this topic and an investigation into the photo presented by Sidney, I want to take the risk and start a new thread.

Since Sidney and I can not agree on the model. I might be able to help a little on finding the date of this photograph. The numeral on the fuselage side of the aircraft, in this case "5", tell me that the photo must have been taken after 2.7.1936. On this date this new marking system for fighter aircraft was ordered by Reichsminister der Luftfahrt und Obebefehlhaber der Luftwaffe. Among several new items, each aircraft shoud carry a German numeral between 1 and 12 on the side of the fuselage in white colour and with a thin outline in black. This does not indicate the unit, merely identifying an aircraft within a Staffel. This new system was to be implimented before 1. September 1936.
The He 51 had a very short career within the Luftwaffe, being quickly replaced by the Arado Ar 68. The time span for the photo can then be July 1936 to end of 1937.

The unit insignia is not known to me, but if it is the 1./136, this is the
floatplane equipped Staffel. However, during the winter months some of these floatplanes were converted with wheel undercarriages due to the ice situation along the German North Sea coastline.

Finally I want to post three pages of repair and maintenance statistics from the three major repair facilities for the He 51. Here is given the version of each aircraft, the Werk Nummer, the date received and the number of days in for rapir or overhaul. I have a total of 14 such pages with some 350 individual aircraft. The total He 51 production was about
500 aircraft, so this should be quite representative.

If someone has different documentation it would be interesting for everyone involved.

[sidney]

I would like to clarify that there was no disagreement between us on the He 51 aircraft model in this thread http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=39584 . I certainly did not dismiss your opinion, or disputed your expertise - I merely stated that it differs from the He 51 info that I found in Prien, Stemmer and others book JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-45, Teil I, which I generally take as the primary reference.

The aforementioned thread focused on the emblem sported on the He 51 aircraft of an unidentified unit (possibly I./136). When I returned home from work, I could not believe that the thread degenerated the way it did. It appears that some members even took a pleasure in the way the discussion derailed. The thread's closure was thus the right and only thing to do.

Thank you for your assessment on the I./136, it is much appreciated. I trust that your thread on the He 51 will fare far better than mine. It is an interesting, often neglected part of the pre-WW2 Luftwaffe history and I certainly look forward to learning more on it.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Nick Beale]

I could not believe that the thread degenerated the way it did

Neither could John and I. It's good to hear that you're finding the discussion useful — enjoy the new thread.

[sidney]

Nick, thank you for the note and, and also the effective administration of the forum that you and John exercise. Will do.

[Merlin]

The main production versions of the He 51 were indeed the He 51A (207 aircraft) and B (300 aircraft) followed by some 105 He 51C - as published in Prien, Stemmer and others book JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-45, Teil I. That table was created by means of test pilots Flugbuchs from Heinkel, delivery data for individual aircraft and loss data - even those from the pre war time. The production at Heinkel and the licence companies ran from February 1935 until spring 1937.

During repairs or heavy maintenance stops all early aircraft were upgraded to the C-version which could be identified by an external tank. This upgrade is visible in the first column of each of the three pages pages presented by Seaplanes. The version is given always as: Abwandlungsmuster (modified version). During this modification process the remaining eyamples of the 30 former seaplanes He 51A-2 and B-2 became He 51D without floats. All He 51D were lost later with land based training units.

The He 51 has had a limited career as a fighter within the Luftwaffe, after roughly two years in service most of the groups became re-equipped with the Bf 109 or D during 1937. Those units, which were equipped with the Arado Ar 68, became re-equipped in 1938.

The He 51C “white 5” from the photo belonged to 1./StG 165 at Kitzingen. The initial equipment of this group since it’s formation in March 1936 were He 51 and Ar 65 with tactical markings like a fighter unit but without any colour code at the engine. These aircraft were replaced by Hs 123 in spring 1937.

Several aircraft of 1./StG 165 have had an individual symbol on a white square with a black border. Known examples are:
“white 1” a red devils head
“white 5” a winged dragon or similar
“white 10” a horse head (not a sea horse)

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all

Highly interesting discussion. Reading from your message, Merlin, I gather that the only visible difference between these early versions is the tank?

Can you enlighten us with regards to what other differences there was?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Seaplanes]

Hello Merlin,
I am aware of the meaning of the word Abwandlung. However, these lists are preprinted forms, possibly by RLM and distributes to the involved factories.
Enclosed you will find a copy of a similar list for the Henschel Hs 126B-1
aircraft, all of which are in for repair after accidents. The damage % is given in column no. 3. There are no conversion for this or any of the
hundreds of pages listing every Luftwaffe aircraft that has been in for repair,overhaul or conversion up to 1.8.1940. In cases of conversions, this is normally noted under Baumuster.

So to the floatplane version of the He 51 (which by the way is the reason why I am interested in this type). In the file of Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv, file no. RL 36/12, there is a Kennblatt (type information) for
Heinkel He 51D (Wasser). In addition to the various data, there are photographs of D-IUPO, W.Nr. 996 and dated 15.9.1936. Such Kennblätter was issued by testing facilities, in this case by the Erprobungsstelle (See) in Travemünde. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of this record, but it isavailable for anybody to check out in Freiburg.

Finally, if someone can produce original documentation that prove me wrong, I will the first to "eat that camel, bottom first".

[Rasmussen]

All He 51 mentioned in the logbook Heinrich (test pilot in Rostock-Marienehe) he called He 51C or He 51D - the first was the He 51C, W.Nr.1020, D-ILUF, from 11.March 1935. On 10.November 1935 is mentioned the first He 51D - the W.Nr.1006, D-IERU. One times he mentioned an He 51A, it was the He 51V-5, D-IBAA.

Regards
Rasmussen

[Seaplanes]

Thanks a lot Rasmussen. Actually I got a copy of this log book and its details was incorporated in my re-construction of the He 51 production. Unfortunately I forgot to mention this source in my e-mail.

The two initial He 51 prototypes delivered in February 1934 were:
He 51a W.Nr. 0429 D-2726. Land plane prototype.
He 51b W.Nr. 0430 D-2727. This aircraft was totally destroyed in a hangar fire in Warnemünde on 17. June 1934. Floatplane prototype. In the accident report this aircraft was given the designation He51B with a capital "B". This may be the reason why others have concluded that this was the designation for all He 51 floatplanes.

[sidney]

Post No.5 refers. Thank you for the assessment Gerhard, and apology for the late acknowledgement. To try and illustrate the point, attached is a copy of the negative of the photo of "White 1" of 1./StG 165, the non-commissioned officer first from the left hand side is then Fw. Robert Olejnik. The Devil's head emblem was previously thought to have been the Staffel emblem of 1./StG 165, which would be suggested by the Staffel's pilots group photo in front of the aircraft sporting this emblem. I find three, or possibly even more, personal emblems prominently sported on the aircraft flanks bit unusual feature for the early Luftwaffe period, that is 1936-37.

Regards,
Sinisa