German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[researcher111]

Great stuff Gabor, let me look into it....I will revert to you with some details ....as into into the rest take your time no real rush at my end

[GMichalski]

hi,
thank you for this great info Gabor,
i search these days about German and Hungarian pilots also in other claim of Pottyondy i found only few data:

14.01.45 Cpt Boston Me 109G 102/2 FS CO Pilisvorosvar 10

seems that losses in January 45 were in all causes:

January Boston losses: 5 VA 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 1, AAA: 2, Accident: 2), 17 VA 15 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 10, AAA: 2, Accident: 3)

but your info is always the best...

about colleague with Nokose, maybe in the future, but now i only ask questions that he always responds....thanks Nokose

I am very grateful with all of you,

regards

[HGabor]

Dear GMichalski,

Yes, you are correct. Pottyondy had a Boston shot down on January 14, 1945 over Pilisvörösvár, which crashed at Rákospalota, Budapest-NE. The target was the Royal Palace of Buda, - the German HQ. and stronghold. The soviet formation crossed the Danube just north of Budapest and at the Pilisvörösvár 'IP' Bf 109s of the Hungarian 101/8. squadron, including Capt. Pottyondy ambushed the bombers. The downed Boston was another 5 VA, 453 BAP A-20G, S/N: 42-54166, piloted by 1Lt. Grigory Rodionovich Voevodin. (They both were well trained and brave pilots with lots of combat experience. Voevodin's crew of 4 survived the crash-landing with 2 WIA onboard. The Boston was a total write-off from 5 VA service by the next day, on January 15, after being examined by soviet ground-crews. The plane received over 120 hits in the dogfight, lost hydraulics, an aileron, broken nose-wheel, deformed cockpits, etc. It is all in the loss report of А-20Ж Бостон №254166) Note: this particular Boston (42-54166) has a great and detailed tail photo at http://www.fold3.com/ while on the way to the USSR in 1943. It is still in Alaska, U.S.A. with other A-20 Bostons and P-39s. (Lend Lease transfer)

But let me ask, if this Boston statistics is from my book, called: "Bostons in the Hungarian Sky and soil (1944-1945)" - just got published last summer? (original title: Bostonok a magyar égen és földben (1944-1945)

These losses are in a chart on p.84 EXACTLY the same way! On p.90 there is the drawing of the formation and air-battle in which 42-54166 was shot out from the right-back 'Tail-End-Charlie' position by Capt. Pottyondy László. On p.92 you can see both Pottyondy's and his victim's photo (portrait) side-by-side... This book lists ALL 222 soviet A-20 Bostons fighting in the skies of Hungary (plus partially over Rumania, Austria, Yugoslavia and Slovakia). All Boston serial numbers are listed too in the quarterly 218th and 244th BAD mechanical aircraft inventory-reports to the VVS HQ by:

October 1, 1944
January 1, 1945
April 1, 1945
July 1, 1945

Losses and battles are described in a very detailed way with the names of the crews. Color profiles show the color markings of 5 & 17 VA A-20 regiments and several pages of (first time published) photos show the planes of the stories. See here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35383

My book also gives lots of data on soviet B-25, IL-2, La-5, La-7, Yak-1, Yak-9 and Yak-3 losses of the 5, 17 and 18 VA in 1944-1945. Serial numbers, engines, crew names, claims, etc. Book is in Hungarian, but the charts, graphics and photos are easy to understand.

It can be ordered (in English) from Magó Károly (Charles Mago) at:

zuhanobombazo@gmail.com

It is about 6000 HUF (about 20-25 EUROs) plus shipping. He will let you know the transfer details.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,
sorry but i don´t have your book, i take the info from:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=34056&page=3

but seems a interesting book, maybe my problem is the language

I will point to the next to buy with some of
Shores, Prien, Boiten, Foreman and Barbas

i search my info almost all in webs...

regards

[HGabor]

Oh, OK, now I remember. No problem, I was just curious. Cheers,

Gabor

[Johannes]

Hi

With Lang I agree, he had his wingman Alfred Gross to work with in my opinion. Cannot find any such aid for Günther Rall, in fact I believe he was honest. Another tool you can use is the East is A.S.M, basically claim is somewhat disputed, but eventually confirmed. If you were making fraudulent claims with your wingman there should be no such claims for you, basically the two of you will claim nice clean "kills" and with Hartmann it's amazing that with over 300 claims documented on the micro films that he has no A.S.M's at all, in fact there were only ever two u/c claims for him, and these going by memory were because he was forced to belly-land shortly afterwards behind Russian lines. Basically in my opinion if a pilot has A.S.M in the East he is honest, obviously somebody with few claims may not have any, but with many they should have some. With Lang he got seventeen(not eighteen) in a single day, and sixty-eight in a calender month, and only one A.S.M on 28th July 1943, which was prior to his association with Gross......who himself had no A.S.M's in the East! With Rudorffer when he makes just one or two claims in a day Tangermann seems not to have been with him, so these are in my opinion probably legitimate, and Rall did have a few A.S.M's. With Hartmann I would think his first seventeen were legitimate as they were before his big claiming days, same could probably be said about Lang before he met Gross.
Johannes Steinhoff has a few A.S.M's and no significant wingmen, so I suspect he was honest, and as he spent considerable time in the West it should be easy to prove so.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S please be critical about what you think about the A.S.M idee.....it's just a thought!

[HGabor]

Folks,

I quickly looked into Hartmann's claims over Hungary and the result is less than poor...... There are only a few cases where I can say it was p-r-o-b-a-b-l-y Hartmann's victory. The majority was max.(!) damaged in combat. In many cases no (permanent) loss in soviet 5 & 17 VA reports of his reported AC type, or the verified losses match (by time and location) other pilots' claims, not Hartmann's.
However, I found these few cases:

5 VA, 264 ShAD, 809 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 1878785 on November 22, 1944, Polunin-Kuptsov crew. Probably Hartmann's victory (only one, not three!), but after landing at Csány-NW, 7 km, the plane was repaired and returned into service. In report it says AAA, which -of course- could be a dogfight, an ambush from below. (Later this plane was re-assigned to the 451 ShAP, when 809 ShAP gave back their used IL-2s and was sent to IL-10 training for the new model. 1878785 was finally shot down and crash-landed on March 20, 1945 - with Volosyankin crew onboard near Kocs and Dad, Hu.)

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5FN, S/N: 39211746, engine: 8212292, on November 22, 1944 in dogfight in the Hatvan area, - piloted by Kovrigin.

November 23, 1944:
17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5, piloted by ml.lt Nikolai Semenovich Kuznetsov. (But: he returned from dogfight and crash-landed near his base, pilot returned OK. So no crash in the dogfight area!) Other option is 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP La-5, piloted by ml.lt Aleksandr Nikolaevich Trusov. After a dogfight at landing, the right wheel broke, turned to the side and ran into an IL-2, parking there. (Their La-5s: probably two of these planes, collectively cancelled from 295 IAD AC inventory on December 13, 1944 as previous days' losses: 39211303, 39211628, 39211933, 39212001, 39212007 and 39214944.)

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP Yak-9D, S/N: 2015315, engine 415-1333, piloted by Alexandr Stepanovich Shuvalov on November 16, 1944.

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP lost two Yak-9s on February 4, 1945 around 12:50 at Rákoscsaba and Budapest (S/N: 1515321 and 2015350). Maybe one of these?????

So only a few cases can be mentioned here, compared to Hartmann's approx. 40 claims during his combat-history over Hungary. Not much. Overall I found Hptm. Helmut Lipfert's claims MUCH-MUCH more reliable than Hartmann's. Hartmann was a great fighter pilot indeed, - but his world record, I think, is only a nice legend...

Gabor

PS: Something to read: "Erich Hartmann JG 52 - 352 victories ..or 80 ? - Russian research Dimitri Khazanov"
http://falkeeins.blogspot.ca/2010/03...ies-or-80.html

[Nick Hector]

Johannes has made an interesting point that I would like to build upon somewhat.

1) We all know that pilots of all airforces made victory claims that were submitted in paper form to unit intellingence officers and the like and it's fair to say that pilots did not award confirmation to their own victory claims. It was done for them.

Conclusion: lots of pilots have been labelled "fraudulent" (...or whatever...) but nobody seems to have yet made mention of the fact that an intelligence officer had to grant confirmation. Should we now call them "gullible"....?

2) Nobody on this forum or anywhere else that I have seen has been inclined to brand a pilot who had many known unconfirmed claims as a "fraudster" or "liar" when so many such unconfirmed claims show that some pilots submitted paperwork that ultimately could not be substantiated to the point that the victory was granted 'confirmed' status.

Conclusion: does having lots of unconfirmed claims therefore make a pilot a "fraudster" who was "caught out"...?

...Thanks for taking the time to read this post. I hope I have put a smile on your face...

[GMichalski]

hi,
Nick see this pilot:
4./JG 77 Ofw 28 7 41 I-16 Wintergerst Eugen Near Gerasovka 1643 _____ E N 1 ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen 1903 _____ E N 2 ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 9 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 11 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 5 SBAP? Can't find any losses so this may be overclaiming
4./JG 77 Ofw 11 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ 5 SBAP? Can't find any losses so this may be overclaiming
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (deputy AE co.) Kapt Sergey Dmitrievich Pyaskovskiy (survived shoot down)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (3 AE) Lt Petr Tikhonovich Yanychev (MIA)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (3 AE; flight co.) Lt. Vasiliy Mikhayovich Beloborodov (MIA)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Moisey Abramovich Khvatan (MIA)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Petr Ivanovich Shuenkov (MIA)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ SB (1 AE) Lt. Mikhail Ivanovich Yakunin (MIA)
4./JG 77 Ofw 12 8 41 SB-2 Wintergerst Eugen _____ _____ E N u/c ___ _____ Also 3 SB damaged and made forced landings.
4./JG 77 Ofw 19 8 41 I-16 Wintergerst Eugen 1558 _____ E N 3 ___ _____ 9 IAP. Two losses: Mladshiy Leytenant Valentin Kalashnikov KIA and pilot Minkin WIA
4./JG 77 Ofw 27 8 41 SB-3 Wintergerst Eugen 710 _____ E N 4 ___ _____ VVS ChF. Two DB-3Fs down plus one SB forcelanded in friendly territory near Odessa after engagement with Bf109s. These losses are possibly also attributable to Romanian pilots
4./JG 77 Ofw 27 8 41 SB-3 Wintergerst Eugen 713 _____ E N 5 ___ _____ VVS ChF. Two DB-3Fs down plus one SB forcelanded in friendly territory near Odessa after engagement with Bf109s. These losses are possibly also attributable to Romanian pilots
4./JG 77 Ofw 22 9 41 MiG-3 Wintergerst Eugen 1540 _____ E N 6 ___ _____
4./JG 77 Ofw 23 9 41 MiG-3 Wintergerst Eugen 1720 _____ E N 7 ___ _____
9./JG 1 Lt 30 7 43 P-47 Wintergerst Eugen See into the sea 1042 5500 W J 8 ___ Was this 42-7935 of 84th FS, 78th FG? Lt. James F Byers KIA (shot down over the Zuider Zee, attributed to a collision). Six fighters lost this day


many unconfirmed claims, Anton Mader didn´t belive these, but i see in a web that they found all wrecks in a row so....
if this info is true, why unconfirmed?
or possibility that the wrecks of Hrdlicka's and Friedrich's victims were miscounted and included in Wintergerst's tally
or my info is totally incorrect...

the info of the losses is from Nick Hector,
regards

[Nick Hector]

GMichalski,

Noted. In a way, it proves what I was saying. Whereas I hold to the contention that the wrecks resulting from the other pilots' victories were counted in his tally on 12.8.41, it shows that he did not convince his chain of command that these were real victories (for right or for wrong). Result: unconfirmed. I guess some pilots were more convincing. Original source of some of the loss info is Nokose. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33810