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  #11  
Old 15th January 2005, 02:47
chief wahoo chief wahoo is offline
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If the aircraft was hit by flak over Milan then it is possible that it may be the lower level intercept by Ostrowitski which occurred at 5,000m???
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  #12  
Old 15th January 2005, 03:26
veltro veltro is offline
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A detailed reading of the whole Missing Air Crew Report n. 4612 should be or great help both to understand the possible development of the events and to define the area where the plane crashed (usually a small hand-drawn map is enclosed in the report to locate the place where the plane was last seen).

This could allow to determine if or which of the claims could be related to the downing of that particular B-17.
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  #13  
Old 15th January 2005, 03:29
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OK I'll try and obtain it...
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  #14  
Old 15th January 2005, 03:30
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Not much help perhaps...

The diary of Stab/JG 77 for 28 April says this:

1328–1454 hours: 5 Bf109 of Stab JG77 scramble. Take-off order from Jafü. Gruppe and Stab directed to the BOLOGNA area. The order to land ensued since the hostiles came no further north.
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  #15  
Old 15th January 2005, 03:35
chief wahoo chief wahoo is offline
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SUNDAY, 30 APRIL 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force):
464th Bombardment Group (Heavy) with B-24s becomes the 19th operational bomb
group.
Around 500 bombers, with fighter escort, attack targets in Italy; B-17s hit
industrial areas at Milan and Varese and the Reggio Emilia air depot; the B-24s
bomb marshalling yards at Alessandria and Milan.
HQ 485th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 828th, 829th, 830th and 831st
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Venosa, Italy from the US with B-24s;
first mission is 10 May.

FRIDAY, 28 APRIL 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force):
Clearing weather again permits bomber operations; 450+ B-17s and B-24s
attack targets in Italy; 188 B-17s bomb Piombino Steel Works and port; 168
B-24s bomb the port area at San Stefano al Mare; and 108 B-24s bomb the port
area at Orbetello; P-38s, P-51s and P-47s provide escort.
32d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 90th Photographic Wing
(Reconnaissance), arrives at San Severo, Italy from the US with F-5s; first
mission is 18 May.
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  #16  
Old 15th January 2005, 03:58
chief wahoo chief wahoo is offline
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Just found this:

Just found this on the web. V/interesting account.

A True 1944 Adventure

by Lawrene R. Landwehr

W256S4895 Wood Lilly Lane

Waukesha, WI 53189


At 7:46 AM, Sunday, April 29, 1944, our B17F fortress bomber, the Chief
Wahoo, took off from our 483rd BG base at Foggia Italy, with 10 men and
12-500 lb load of demolition bombs. With the rest of our formation, we were
to destroy a factory at Milan in Northern Italy.


Our pilot, Hilmer Landholt, our bombardier Floyd Bowles, myself at age 24,
and eight more of us were briefed that this would be a "Milk Run". All we
had to do was fly up there, drop our bombs, and come back to our base. All
the Italians and Germans would be in church!


Sad to say, intelligence was wrong. During and after our run on the target,
heavy flak rocked our plane. An 88 projectile went through the wing between
number 3 and 4 engines, exploding above us. Immediately #3 engine caught
fire. The pilot pulled the handle and extinguished the fire with the CO2
rings around it and feathered the prop! With the loss of power in that
engine, our plane had to drop out of the formation protection and start our
journey back home. A few minutes later, four ME 109s of the German Luftwaffe
engaged us because we were a straggler and without the protective firepower
of the squadron. In the ensuing battle, they made runs firing against our
plane from the nose, and then went under us to turn and come back from the
rear. The bombardier, by a sly trick, shot up one ME 109 so bad he had to
eject. I was at right waist and fired only 20-30 rounds from my flexible 50
caliber out the open window. All this time we were losing altitude; the
three engines could not keep us up. The pilot gave the order to bail out at
approximately 5,000 feet.


After pulling the rip cord and floating down, I noticed a creek running
across the road near where I would come down. Upon landing roughly, I
gathered my chute around me and back into the 3-foot culvert. In eight or
ten minutes, motorcycles, bicycles, and military vehicles searched for me.
They knew I had come down in that vicinity.


To plan my escape, I stayed in the culvert all Sunday night and all of the
next day and night. On my parachute harness I had fastened a Tropical
Survival Kit that I had picked up - water purifier, hacksaw blades, money
and maps. I then planned to walk to the Adriatic Sea, obtain a boat, and
paddle back to Foggia. I set out walking - walking 200 steps, then jogging
200 steps, an old Indian way to cover ground. The money was useless; people
ran away when I tried to buy a bicycles, food or other items. The third
night, I "borrowed" a suit coat from a clothesline to cover up my flying
coveralls.


Being too engrossed and eager to get back to our base, I got too bold. I put
a garden hoe over my shoulder and walked right through villages and over
bridges guarded by soldiers. Finally on the fifth day, while I walked down
the highway, a German soldier stopped me for a light for his cigarette.
Since I couldn't speak German, I shook my head and continued on. He rode his
bike in the opposite direction until another soldier joined him; both pulled
out their pistols and approached me asking for identification. All I could
do was shake my head, whereupon they marched me to the local jail. When they
searched me and found all those escape items, they thought I was a spy or a
fighter pilot. I had an English-speaking woman question me, but as you know,
I could only tell them my name, rank and serial number.


They must have gotten on the phone to German Headquarters, because the next
day they took me under guard to a railroad station and then through Bremmer
Pass and into Germany. In Frankfurt there was a central prison and SS troops
to interrogate Allied airmen and other POWs.


After 2 days and nights in a cell with only a straw bed on the floor and an
open drain for a potty, I was brought to a central room by a 7-ft. tall
guard and plunked down in a chair across from a German officer. He spoke
good English with an accent. He had a pack of Lucky Strike and Chesterfield
cigarettes in front of him. After offering me one, which I politely refused,
he proceeded to light up and blow clouds of smoke in my face. He didn't
realize I didn't smoke. He confirmed my name, rank and serial number and
then started berating me for fighting against them. My name Landwer means
(according to Webster's dictionary) the first German Land Army. Wehr macht
is their infantry fighting force. Suddenly he asked me how many tons of
bombs the B29 would tote to the target and what was the top speed? With no
answers to another five questions, he motioned to the guard to take me to my
cell.


Lunch consisted of a cup of watery soup of potato peels, cabbage or
rutabagas with some broth, a slice of black bread, margarine and one 3"
slice of wurst. Shortly I was taken to the same room with a different SS
officer who said that since I was found with escape items and a civilian
jacket, I was a sure candidate to be shot as a spy unless I cooperated with
answers to questions about our base, missions, and future targets! With no
answers to their dozen questions, I was returned to my cell to "think it
over" seriously before it was too late.


In four more sessions in which I told them nothing, my final SS officer
berated me: "You think we Germans are stupid. Look at this." He pushed a
report of my crew, each position and each man's name, rank and even civilian
occupation in front of me. When I showed no surprise, he said "For you the
war is over", and that I was to be sent to an Airman's POW camp to spend my
days until we lost the war.


That night I was loaded on a 40-8 boxcar with other POWs and arrived two
days later at Stalag Luft IV at Gross Tychoro. As POW 1036, my clothes were
exchanged for other used ones and I went into Compound A as the first group
to occupy a room with 15 other Kriegies. We had two tier wooden beds in our
barracks three feet off the ground to prevent tunneling.. There were 11
other rooms with just one wash room and two latrines.


On February 10, 1945, we left Luft IV; traveling in the Black March of 80
days and more than 620 miles in the winter. Along the way, some of us got
into 40-8 boxcars to Nurenburg. We were liberated May 5, 1945 by Patton's
Third Army at 7A Moosburg. After a voyage in convoy to the US, I was
discharged Sept. 15, 1945 at Fort McCoy, WI. At the rank of T/Sgt!!!
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  #17  
Old 15th January 2005, 15:08
veltro veltro is offline
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Very interesting story.

From the account we can tell that:

1) "Chief Wahoo" was hit over the target by flak;

2) the plane was forced to slow down and it became a straggler, slowly keeping behind of the main formation on the way home;

3) when Mr. Landwehr writes: "...A few minutes later, four ME 109s of the German Luftwaffe engaged us..." it is clearly a subjective memory, since time is always relative to each one of us, especially in high tension situations. So the event may have happened somewhat far from Milan, also considering that the bomber had started the return route, that it developed enough distance from the others to be a viable target and that the attacks certainly lasted for several minutes;

4) there is unfortunately no reference at all to the place where the pilot landed after bailing out (names or something like that). However, the fact that the crewman thought to make its way walking to reach the Adriatic coast should place the area at least on the southern border of the Padana Plain;

5) According to the place where the plane crashed and the hour of the crash, it should be easier to determine which one of the three German claim reports is referring to "Chief Wahoo". Last but not least, each is fortunately separate in time or location, which should ease things a bit.

5) it seems that you only have to try to get in touch with Mr. Landwehr (and obtain at the same time the MACR n.4612 of course) at his address!

Best of luck.
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  #18  
Old 16th January 2005, 02:30
chief wahoo chief wahoo is offline
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Viltro

Thanks. The date given in Mr Landwehr's account should be Sunday 30th April. My calculations would put the aircraft some 30-40 [max 50] nautical miles south or south-west of Milan went it went down. This is based on a descending airspeed of around 140knots and that they descended from around 20,000ft down to 5,000ft. Just spoke to Ed and he tells me that Larry Landwehr has lost his hearing but Ed is trying to contact his bombardier who lives near him in Michigan.
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  #19  
Old 16th January 2005, 03:29
veltro veltro is offline
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Sorry, but I think that the bomber did much more flight distance before crashing (considering all the events occurred before that moment). If you take a map of Italy, you'll see that south of Milan there is a plain extending much more than 50 miles. If the plane had crashed in that territory, the crew would have been captured in a matter of minutes, every German in the area being able to see the bomber crash.

Unless we know the exact route followed by the plane (or, at least, the route planned for that mission for the B-17s of 483rd BG, a data that could be obtained searching for the unit's mission report of that day...), any further deduction is pure guesswork.

The crashing point is the necessary start of the research, IMHO.
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  #20  
Old 16th January 2005, 20:42
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Stephane Muret Stephane Muret is offline
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Few infos

Just few informations i found on Roger Anthoine's book "aviateur-pieton vers la Suisse, 1940-1945".
It is written on p.331 :
Sgt John Altgelt and Sgt Robert Goddard , crewmen from B17 from 483 BG, shooted down near Rovigo (I) on april 30 1944, in Swiss on may 28 1944, out of Swiss on september 13 1944.

Hope this could helps.

Stephane Muret
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