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  #11  
Old 25th October 2017, 13:16
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

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Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Guys

Interesting story. I am quite sure that he would not escape my research, but has. All claims would have to have been made December 1944 to May 1945 to escape me(or have been with other units), and that would mean he would have been the second highest scoring pilot behind Gunther Josten during this period! Yet we are told he was on the Eastern front(presumably with JG 54) for three years. He does appear in the losses for 1./JG 54 for 8th May 1945 as an unteroffizier as Ludwig Nitsch, so it can't be a case of a name change. Also he'd have to be a extremely poor pilot to have spent thirty months on the Eastern front with no claims at all!!!, moreover he doesn't appear in the losses of JG 54 before the last day of the war, again very,very unusual.

Guess we need to keep digging.

Johannes
Johannes, if it helps: one of Christer Bergstroem's books mentions him and that he achieved a couple of victories as late as early May 1945
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  #12  
Old 25th October 2017, 13:54
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Hans

I have my own theory about how these 38 'claims' came about. Nothing exiting just a human reflection on why people tell white lies, not knowing or realizing they will pop up in historical circumstances later.

In 1945 he was quite young (18 years sounds a little too young but may perhaps indicate when he joined the Luftwaffe?). A little odd he stayed for 8 months with an advanced fighter pilot school like JG 108 and never filtered through any of the Ergänzungsunits available or sent quicker to a frontline unit, who were constantly screaming for more pilots, which may indicate he was not the "born" fighter type. Anyway the reputed three claims for B-17s must have been made while with this unit since there is no way they can have been scored with JG 54. Somehow they feel very unlikely to have happened.

He must anyway have been a very inexperienced pilot when arriving to JG 54. It feels extremely unlikely that this youngster would all of a sudden start to outshine the 'veterans'. He may have made a few claims, but going from nothing to suddenly make an average claim of some 3-4 per week is at least to me simply not believable.

I suggest you contact Andrew Arthy (send him a PM) and ask if he has got anything on Nitsch. He is deep into research with regard to the Kurland/Courland pocket.

Cheers
Stig
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  #13  
Old 25th October 2017, 16:07
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Very interesting thread! I can add that JG 54 claimed quite a number of victories on several days in 1945. These are not mentioned in any known [to me] claim lists. For example:
17 February 1945 - 15 victory claims
21 February 1945 - 25 victory claims
There were also days when no operations were flown at all.
So it is quite possible that Nitsch could claim a number of victories.
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  #14  
Old 26th October 2017, 15:40
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Hi Stig

Regarding JG 54 and the B-17's, I agree very unlikely, but not impossible Gunther Toll of JG 52 got one in 1945........very unlikely, but happened........but then again three sounds very unrealistic/fantastic.

In my opinion no claims for the man. Lets face it, it's based on his hearsay only.

At this stage of the war fuel was hard to come by, sometimes only the best pilots were allowed to fly. Why would this unknown/new pilot be the top scoring pilot of 1945. I believe Helmut Lipfert was charged with wasting fuel by taking-off without permission, but it was a case that an emergency flare had been fired by mistake.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #15  
Old 27th October 2017, 10:25
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Johannes

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Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
In my opinion no claims for the man. Lets face it, it's based on his hearsay only.
It could be true. But it well may be that he claimed several victories, even if not 38. Why? Because of a high number of claims made by the units of Lfl. 1 in Courland in early months of 1945. The total numbers of victory claims I had posted above are from daily reports of Ia Heeresgruppe Kurland. These are official figures.

And there are more examples of high number of claims made on several occasions. On 23 February 1945 thirty (!) victories were claimed (26 reported initially and in a later report corrected to 30)

No doubt these totals include not only claims made by fighters, but also those made by ground-attack pilots. Nevertheless, they allow to draw a conclusion. There were some pilots in JG 54 and SG 3, of whose successes we currently know nothing. So why Nitsch couldn't be one of them?
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  #16  
Old 28th October 2017, 13:43
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Perhaps it's all a miss-understanding, perhaps he made thirty-eight combat sorties, of which three were against B-17's.

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Johannes
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  #17  
Old 28th October 2017, 14:15
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

The information about his decorations would be most helpful. If he had scored some victories, he must had been awarded at least EKII
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  #18  
Old 28th October 2017, 14:22
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Andrei

Nothing is written in stone, but sometimes I find these late Heeres reports rather fanciful. In just three days, Luftwaffe fighter aircraft should have wiped out almost an entire Pulk of aircraft. Did anyone actually believe them anymore? Perhaps the report(s) also included AA-claims?

Personally, I would like to have a little bit more to it than just these reports.
I also expect that the (hopefully) soon to be published book by Jessen/Arthy will provide, if not the full answer, at least much more details than I myself have available.

Johannes

I doubt very much any B-17s were involved in any missions into the Courland Pocket area in 1945. I think everyone took this area as being entirely within the Soviet sphere of interest. Since there also must have been a clear lack of strategic targets I cannot see what good use any B-17s would have done. The tactical aircraft mostly used by the Soviets were very capable in handling the situation.

Cheers
Stig
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  #19  
Old 28th October 2017, 15:16
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Stig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
I find these late Heeres reports rather fanciful.
The information about German aerial activity in all Heer reports had been supplied to Army formations by Luftwaffe itself, in this case by Lfl.1. These are official Lfl.1 totals of victories for the given date. If the numbers in these reports were corrected in a later report, it was usually towards rasing the score, as the information of the combats in the latter part of the day not always got through to HQ by the time report was compiled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
In just three days, Luftwaffe fighter aircraft should have wiped out almost an entire Pulk of aircraft. Did anyone actually believe them anymore?
Of course, these numbers are victory claims, not actual Soviet losses. The question of overclaiming ratio by units of Lfl.1 in 1945 is another matter.
Personally I think these outbursts of furious aerial combats have correlation with the arrival/unloading of important convoys or supply transports, which Soviets tried to destroy by launching heavy air raids. And, as a rule, the bigger combat, the more overclaiming by both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
Perhaps the report(s) also included AA-claims?
The claims of AA units were listed in these reports separately. I've already posted on this forum some time ago excerpt from such a report for 16 Feb 1945, which reads: jaeger schossen 3 flugzeuge ab
One of these three victories was Kittel's last. But who were the other two victorious pilots?

And example for 17 Feb in attachment. There was a big aerial battle over German convoy on this date. One steamer from this convoy - Eifel, was sunk by Soviet aircraft with heavy loss of life.
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  #20  
Old 28th October 2017, 16:03
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Ludwig Nitsch 38 "kills"...?

Thanks for the updates Andrei

Perhaps I then should have said I find these late Luftflotte reports rather fanciful
And I still wonder if anyone really believed in them. Perhaps they were issued as moral raiser for the troops? The latter is perhaps to stretch the facts a bit too far....

However I found Johannes theory about 38 missions rather than 38 claims far more valid in Nitsch's case. But who knows? The one who really knew is gone, and we are left to our own conjectures and beliefs. Without further evidence I'm afraid we get no further.

Cheers
Stig
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