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  #41  
Old 10th July 2020, 02:07
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Yes, it is true, no such massive dog fights like over the Channel or Germany, but still such a combat could be a complete mess. So without a narrative it is hard to tell if overclaim was due to a heat of a combat or intentional fraud.
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  #42  
Old 10th July 2020, 12:13
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Franek

What I am doing at the moment is checking pilots claims against other from the same staffel and see who claims with who. Have just completed Joachim Kirschner as he has been fingered as an "over-claimer", initially his claims with 5./JG3 are not spectacular, and are not unless he is claiming the same time as Hans Grünberg and Arnold Bringmann, if another 5./JG3 pilot claims the same time as Kirschner then it's usually just a single claim, if a whole bunch of 5./JG3 pilots claim, then again usually just one or two claims. When only Grünberg and Bringmann are the other claimers then it's multiple. With Grünberg in particular it's in a ratio of two for Kirschner to every one of Grünberg's. Grünberg's claims without Kirschner claiming are again singular.

Other pilots within 5./JG3 do not seem to be involved, in fact all Kirschner's A.S.M claims are either without any other pilot claiming, or the guys I personally do not think were involved claiming.

Kirschner then transfers to a unit(Stab.IV./JG27) who's claims match Allied losses relatively well. So how does he continue "over-claiming", answer is "Heinrich Bartels of 11./JG27 who he seems to borrow.....Kommandeur's privilege I would guess, but also an abuse of power. In fact I have not checked, but I put money on the newly formed fourth gruppe of JG27 being the least honest gruppe of the Geschwader as it seems that the outsiders that formed it brought bad habits with them.

However the question that hasn't been answered is how Kirschner new of Bartels inclination to "over-claim", as said before perhaps they had a "Freemasons" type handshake, or wore a yellow button or something....who can say.

I have also looked in Heinrich Erhler, but alas it's hard to workout, so as he was Franz Dorr's witness quite a few times I checked him(I have all his witnesses names) anyway Helmut Neumann would have been in collusion with him, but so were most of 7./JG5, it was endemic sadly. Of note also is how often pilots from other Staffels and even Gruppe were the witnesses.
Surely JG5's claims would be the easiest to scrutinize in the East.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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  #43  
Old 10th July 2020, 16:13
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Hi Johannes
I can imagine a situation when leader and wingman knew themselves so well, and trust each other, that they could go in a whatever melee could have happened. The bigger melee the bigger overclaim. So the point is, that each dog fight should have been analyzed in detail. I have tried to do so for a number of combats over ETO 1940-1945, and on several ocassions, the actual course of events seemed much different to what transpired from claims & losses data. My observation is, however that narratives are just essential. Sadly, there are so few from the German side. Of course, it happens that narratives seem a fiction. I recall a one of a German pilot claiming his unit being attacked by 150 Thunderbolts. Only a squadron of Mustangs was around.
All the best
Franek
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  #44  
Old 11th July 2020, 13:29
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Johannes,

Here is the completed list for Düttmann for 1944-45 in Hungary. Later claims were already discussed, note the earlier ones. On October 23, 1944 six 5 VA, 131 GvShAP IL-2s, led by Capt. Derkachev attacked German tanks at Szolnok-E, when JG 52 encountered them. Hptm. Helmut Lipfert (wingman: Bruno Steins) immediately downed two IL-2s (S/N: 10620, 302820, - Lapinskii POW, Kralkin KIA): 1 exploded midair - Lipfert flew into its debris, 1 lost its tail and crashed immediately. 3rd plane (S/N: 1873563, Gv.Lt. Victor Petrovich Zubov) did not crash, it was only damaged in the dogfight, but was scrapped after landing back at their base, so more or less it can be considered a "victory". I assume this was Düttmann's.

Gabor

21/10/1944 - 10.56 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
21/10/1944 - 10.58 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
23/10/1944 - 15.34 - POTENTIAL "VICTORY" - Il-2mH. (S/N: 1873563)
30/10/1944 - 13.21 - OERCLAIM - MiG-3 (Yak-9)
30/10/1944 - 13.24 - OERCLAIM - MiG-3 (Yak-9) - 1 Yak-1B (S/N: 21151) was lost to flak at 13:50 local.
31/10/1944 - 08.21 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
31/10/1944 - 14.17 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
31/10/1944 - 14.19 - ??? - Il-2mH. (long story, more info needed - but no straight time-match, that's for sure)
01/11/1944 - 14.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
01/11/1944 - 14.06 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
01/11/1944 - 14.09 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Yak-9 (Yak-1b, S/N: 08175)
01/11/1944 - 14.03 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
07/11/1944 - 16.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-9
13/11/1944 - 09.02 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Yak-11 (Yak-3, S/N: 3529218)
13/11/1944 - 09.05 - OERCLAIM - Yak-11
13/11/1944 - 12.20 - OERCLAIM - Il-2mH.

08/03/1945 - 16.24 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
08/03/1945 - 16.27 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
09/03/1945 - 13.51 - OVERCLAIM - La-5
09/03/1945 - 13.53 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
11/03/1945 - 13.23 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 13.26 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
11/03/1945 - 15.21 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-9
14/03/1945 - 12.55 - CONFIRMED VICTORY - Boston (S/N: 43-21519)
16/03/1945 - 13.55 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.56 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.58 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 13.59 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
16/03/1945 - 14.01 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - Il-2mH. (S/N: 18874124)
18/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 11.52 - OVERCLAIM - Il-2mH.
19/03/1945 - 14.56 - OVERCLAIM - Yak-3
19/03/1945 - 15.03 - POTENTIAL VICTORY - La-5 (S/N: 39211166)
20/03/1945 - 14.05 - OVERCLAIM - P-51
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  #45  
Old 12th July 2020, 16:54
HGabor HGabor is online now
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

Combat diary of 5 VA, 7 GvShAD reported on October 23, 1944 that the 131 GvShAP lost 2 IL-2s (10620 and 302820 - both to Lipfert) indeed, while Zubov's No.1873563 returned to base without gunner, Sgt. Nikolai Mihailovich Gusev, who probably bailed out from the plane during Düttmann's attack and went missing. Plane landed with the pilot alone and by November 4, 1944 it was written off by the regiment and was sent to a major, "factory repair" to 38 ОТТР. So looks like it was a "so-so" victory for Düttmann. Note, that serials 302820 and 1873563 were in "short form", without the irrelevant factory part (Factory No.18 and 30: 18-7-xxxx, 30-xxxx)

Gabor
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  #46  
Old 13th July 2020, 13:30
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Barkhorn: claims vs. victories

22 August 1941
Staraya Russa
6 Il-2 243 ShAP (3 Il-2 loss)
Leutnant Gerhard Barkhorn 6./JG 52 V-11 (5) 12:25
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