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Old 29th May 2006, 10:44
RodM RodM is offline
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NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hello One and All,

does anyone know of any combat loss of (probably) a Ju88, possibly of NJG2 or 4, somewhere NW to W of Wesel on the night of the 3rd/4th February 1945.

Apparently such a loss was confirmed by the HQ of No 83 Group, 2TAF, RAF...

Cheers

RodM
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Old 29th May 2006, 11:03
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

A Ju 88 G-6 of 3/NJG 2 crashed as a result of combat near Marienfeld; the other losses were a He 219 and a Bf 110
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Old 29th May 2006, 12:47
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hi Chris,

thanks for the details.

I cannot say if the Marienfeld loss would relate to the specific incident. The 'Ju88' attacked a RAF Lancaster illuminated by a fighter flare in the region NW to W of Wesel just after 2005 hrs, as the Lancaster was homeward ater attacking Bottrop. The Ju88 opened fire from behind at a range of 150 yrds and the rear funner of the Lanc returned fire with a 5 second burst that lasted until the Ju88 passed under the Lancaster at a range of 25 yrds. The pilot saw the night fighter enveloped in flames (it was he who 'positively identified' it as a 'Ju188') at very close distance just under the Lanc's starboard wing before it dived down out of sight.

The Lancaster, itself on fire, struggled on a further 40-50 miles before it was abandoned over Allied lines. According to a report, the HQ of 83 Group 2 TAF confirmed that witnesses on the ground saw the combat and also saw the Ju88 crash, which was also confirmed. In view of the witnesses, I doubt that the 2TAF info would be derived from 'Y' Traffic, which could've been the case for the Ju88 that crashed at Marienfeld...

The He219 was that of Hptm. Graf Rességuier and was also shot down by a bomber (one of those that attacked Dortmund) that crashed soon after.

Cheers

Rod
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Old 29th May 2006, 14:30
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Difficult to read the NVM, but location seems to be Marienschildt near Gütersloh, not the fastest way to return from the Ruhr..there are others losses of Ju88, these nights, but without crew casualties.

remi
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Old 30th May 2006, 10:20
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hi Remi,

thanks for the reply. I can find no reference to a place called either Marienschildt or Marienscheldt... I've checked the history of I./NJG2 and it states that the aircraft was lost "by Marienschild, by Gütersloh airfield". No luck with that spelling either...


Would you happen to have any information about any of the other Ju88s lost (excl non-combat)?

Unfortunately, the RAF report is not specific enough about the circumstances of the alledged loss.

Cheers

Rod
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Old 30th May 2006, 12:07
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

There's a Marienfeld about 8km NW of Guetersloh town centre - just a guess.

I thought the 219 was shot down by a 410 Sqn Mossie - is this incorrect?
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Old 30th May 2006, 13:16
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hi Mark,

thanks for the info.

A check of the 410 Sqdn combat report concerned showed that the combat and claim had nothing to do with the Hptm. Rességuier loss as has so far been reported (shot down simultaneously by the rear gunner of his victim and from behind by a night fighter after being illuminated by a S/L). For one, the cirumstances were different - the He219 claimed by the Mossie was orbiting around a beacon/was not caught in a search light or attacking a bomber and, secondly, it occurred an hour and a half later (2200 hrs) than the claim by Rességuier (at which time the He219 was shot down, according to a crew member of the He219).

The identity of Rességuier's victim (and possible victor) for that matter can only be narrowed down to two bomber losses, both of which crashed in the München Gladbach area - no crew members survived from either aircraft so no new light can be shed on the incident. I guess the possibility remains that, in the absence of any corresponding Mossie claim, Rességuier's He219 was fired on from behind by either another Nachtjäger or a bomber.

The combat originally mentioned in the thread shows how nothing can be taken for granted. The Lancaster lost (PD378 ) crashed around 8 miles SSW of Eindhoven so intially it seemed that the night fighter attack would've happened in that area. In fact, as previously mentioned, the attack occurred 50 miles further east and the Lanc limped on past Allied lines before the crew baled out. No corresponding Nachtjagd claim has been found that ties in with the reported circumstances.

As for the possible Ju88 crash, I guess that will go into the "?" basket since not enough details are known about what the witnesses actually saw or where.

More will be revealed in Dr. Theo Boiten's forthcoming book....

Cheers

Rod
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Old 30th May 2006, 13:37
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hi.

I have one aircraft from I./N.J.G.2, probably the one mentioned by RT, piloted by Lt. Ernst Boeving (name correct?)

Also, an aircraft from I./N.J.G.5 and one from I./N.J.G.4 was lost due to something that could have been an encounter with enemy aircraft.

I have details of 15 Ju 88 lost on 3/4 Feb 1945 altogether.

Regards,
Andreas
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Old 30th May 2006, 14:01
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Hi Andreas,

thanks for the reply, the History of I./NJG2 (Rökker) gives the spelling as Lt. Böving, in Ju88 G-6 W.Nr. 620584 of 3./NJG2 (and the main narrative entry gives the place as 'Marienfeld' as Mark suggested), noting that the loss was due to unknown cirumstances (presumedly no bullet holes found in wreckage?).

I'd be intersted to know if any of the crash places of the other losses that you have would be in a location to the NW of the Ruhr. I only have a few published sources to go on and, of course, combined they are woefully incomplete.

Interestingly, according to an RAF Bomber Command IT report, compiled a few days after the raid, bomber crews returning from Dortmund claimed 1 Me110 destroyed and crews returning from Bottrop claimed 1 FW190 destroyed (presumably the claim by the crew of PD378, who took some days to return from Holland wasn't at hand at the time the report was made). These appear to be the total sum of the bomber crew claims.

Cheers

Rod
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Old 30th May 2006, 14:11
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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Re: NJG Combat Loss 3/4 Feb 45

Thanks Rod and Andreas.

Any indication then which He 219 was attacked by the Mossie? I've a note that another 1./NJG 1 crash-landed at Handorf after ejection seat failure, but, as ever, that's from a secondary source, and Handorf's a looooong way from Garzweiler (if indeed that's the location given by the 410 Sqn. combat report).
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