Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 27th July 2016, 23:35
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,406
Frank Olynyk is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

MACR 3700 for Valley.

Engines are V-1710-91 & 89, serials 42-94(?)257 & 42-30275.

Machine guns are .50 cal Browning M-2, Upper Left 376824, LL 376784, UR 376623, LR 41094(?)6.
Cannon is Hispano M-1 20 mm 118673

The entire MACR block 3692 to 3717 is/was missing from Fold3 (mostly April 1944)

I don't see any possibilities in the late Aug - early Oct 1944 period for P-38s. Anyone who appears to be still missing seems to have been lost well outside of Yugoslavia.

Enjoy!

Frank.
__________________
Civilization is the most fragile ecology of all.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 28th July 2016, 00:10
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 2,015
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

The original investigators did look at a few 9th AF losses. The MACR numbers show up on their list. I don't know if they were just going by loss dates or whether they really thought a 9th AF plane could end up in Yugoslavia.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 28th July 2016, 09:08
vathra vathra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 165
vathra is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk View Post
MACR 3700 for Valley.
I don't see any possibilities in the late Aug - early Oct 1944 period for P-38s. Anyone who appears to be still missing seems to have been lost well outside of Yugoslavia.
I have found several planes that were "last seen" on other places.
One was seen to crash into Adriatic, while it fell some 250km away in mainland.
In other case plane was last seen in Germany, while it landed safely in Montenegro.

It did happen that planes were misidenitified, especially if they lost formation.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 28th July 2016, 12:59
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 2,015
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

I have a rather "wild" theory about this. Maybe the MACR is not "missing" but rather the MACR is wrong.

I think we may have a MACR for the name of the pilot, who was from the 1st, 14th or 82nd FG. He was probably lost around Aug to Oct 1944 (but we probably should be willing to expand that range).

In the MACR, it will state either the man was lost (and may have been seen to crash) near Drvar or more likely, he was NOT seen to crash elsewhere. (I think if the MACR says the man was lost near Drvar the orginal investigators would have "found" him.) What is wrong with the MACR is the serial numbers. I think our man may have been flying a plane with a serial number in the range 44-23059 to 44-23208 and the MACR may also show a plane in that range. The mistake is that the wrong plane's info got recorded on the MACR. Maybe the pilots switched planes at the last minute, or maybe there was a records screw up.

As an example take MACR 7192 for Lt Howard G Micheli, 1st FG, who is still MIA. He is last seen flying over the northern Adriatic on July 13, 1944. (The date may be too far away from our range) but he was flying 44-23147. He was not able to communicate via radio with other planes in his formation and he seems to just fly away on his own. He was not seen to crash and other pilots in his element thought he would be able to land somewhere in friendly territory. The other planes in his element landed on Vis.

How many other MACRs can we find like this, particularly in the date range Aug to Oct 1944?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 28th July 2016, 13:51
vathra vathra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 165
vathra is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwank View Post
I think we may have a MACR for the name of the pilot, who was from the 1st, 14th or 82nd FG. He was probably lost around Aug to Oct 1944 (but we probably should be willing to expand that range).
If all serials in MACR are wrong (which sounds rather strange), then it can not be identified anyway by those data.

I agree on your possible range of units and dates.
I would check if there are some losses in such range, for which there is no MACR.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 28th July 2016, 19:59
Leendert Leendert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,736
Leendert will become famous soon enough
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

A slightly different approach and hampered by having no access to fold3 to check gun numbers or the like.

If the pilot of Drvar is (also) unknown, then perhaps look at P-38 losses in the wider area with MIA/FOD till this day.
One example may be MACR 9074 with Lt Donald I. Lindberg in 43-28630, lost on 11 Oct 1944, 1st FG. "Last seen" 45 N and 16.20 E.

Regards,

Leendert
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 28th July 2016, 20:36
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 2,015
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

That might be a possibility, too. It is believed that Donald I Lindberg had an oxygen failure. He was last seen flying off into a cloud at 20,000 feet, the time was 11:20. He is still listed MIA.

He is last seen 'near' the area of the crash (about 45 miles away). His plane is listed as 43-28630 (MACR 9074) with engines A-045364 and A-045193. Guns are: 1029875, 1032764, 689502, 689712.
20mm is 118642.

Now if these serial numbers are the "wrong" numbers, probably the only way we could prove it would be to find the some of the same numbers on another MACR, or find some of the original records of the group or find the aircraft record card and see that the plane was not infact lost that day.

It is interesting that Joe Baugher does not list 43-28630 on his serial number list. I wonder if he saw something that was confusing enough that he left it off. He normally seems to get most of the planes that have MACRs.

Also interesting is the time of day. The IDPF file gives the time of the crash, as stated by the civilian witnesses, as 12:00.
What does not seem to match up (besides the date of the crash) is the weather. The MACR has 8/10 to 9/10 overcast at 22,000 to 28,000 feet. The civilians say the weather was clear. I wonder if the 45 miles difference would make that much change in the weather in that area.

Last edited by RSwank; 28th July 2016 at 21:26.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 28th July 2016, 22:21
Rainer's Avatar
Rainer Rainer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 175
Rainer is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSwank View Post
I think we may have a MACR for the name of the pilot, who was from the 1st, 14th or 82nd FG. He was probably lost around Aug to Oct 1944 (but we probably should be willing to expand that range).
The DPAA still lists about 210 pilots from these three FGs as MIA, but only 48 of them with dates after August 1944. However, some of those are listed with the "finding of death" date that usually happened at least one year and a day after a service member was reported missing - sorting out those cases known to have happened from late 1943 and early 1944 leaves a list of only 20 MIA cases.
  1. 1944-08-14 1LT MCCONNELL, W C JR (O-816901) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 7976: P-38J 42-104123 seen to crash at Montfrin, France on 14 Aug 1944
  2. 1944-08-16 1LT WOODY, WAYNE R (O-760217) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 8630: P-38J 43-28345 seen to crash near Corsica on 16 Aug 1944
  3. 1944-08-20 2LT STJOHN, WALTER O JR (O-766377) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 7978: P-38J 43-28637 seen to crash near Nimes, France on 20 Aug 1944
  4. 1944-10-20 2LT TWEDT, LOWELL S (O-806552) 71 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9313: P-38J 43-28799 mid-air crash with 43-28777 northeast of Bolzano, Italy on 20 Oct 1944
  5. 1944-11-07 2LT BREWER, PHILIP (O-715462) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 9694: P-38L 44-24035 lost over Serbia on 7 Nov 1944
  6. 1944-11-11 1LT JENSEN, RUSSEL E (O-826983) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9802: P-38J 42-104248 lost over Italy on 11 Nov 1944
  7. 1944-11-16 2LT STEFFANI, EDWARD (O-708161) 71 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9893: P-38L 44-24407 lost over Yugoslavia on 16 Nov 1944
  8. 1945-01-12 1LT COOKSON, JEROLD A (O-763504) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 11088: P-38J 43-28769 lost over Italy on 12 Jan 1945
  9. 1945-01-20 2LT COOK, GLENN A (O-770185) 48 FS/14 FG >> MACR 11389: P-38J 44-24638 lost over Adriatic Sea on 20 Jan 1945
  10. 1945-02-17 1LT GRAHAM, CARL G (O-769804) 97 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
  11. 1945-03-10 2LT SINCLAIR, HERSCHEL T (O-773836) 49 FS/14 FG >> MACR 13005: P-38J 43-28547 seen to crash in Adriatic Sea on 10 Mar 1945
  12. 1945-03-18 CPT MEIDINGER, JOHN C (O-743471) 48 FS/14 FG >> MACR 13067: P-38L 44-25041 lost over Yugoslavia on 18 Mar 1945
  13. 1945-04-08 1LT ZIMMERMANN, RICHARD (O-684597) 48 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
  14. 1945-04-22 1LT ANDERSON, ERNEST L (O-767063) 95 FS/82 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Mediterranean Sea
  15. 1945-08-17 1LT TOWNSEND, CHARLES C (O-746225) 37 FS/14 FG >> no MACR found, listed as missing in Adriatic Sea
  16. 1945-08-20 1LT STRADER, LEROY C (O-753754) 37 FS/14 FG >> MACR 8341: P-38J 43-28336 missing on transfer from UK to Italy on 19 Aug 1944
  17. 1945-10-12 1LT LINDBERG, DONALD I (O-770328) 27 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9074: P-38J 43-28630 lost over Yugoslavia on 11 Oct 1944
  18. 1945-11-08 2LT COULSON, ELDON E (O-715478) 95 FS/82 FG >> MACR 9696: P-38J 43-28662 lost over Yugoslavia on 7 Nov 1944
  19. 1945-11-22 1LT FOLLETT, JOHN R (O-762304) 27 FS/1 FG >> MACR 9970: P-38L 44-24444 lost over Yugoslavia on 21 Nov 1944
  20. 1946-04-01 1LT GILLEN, R G (O-756537) 94 FS/1 FG >> MACR 13479: P-38L 44-24654 lost over Austria on 31 Mar 1945

I've checked all cases with known MACRs except 9694 and 9696 but the serial numbers given in them are completely different. Case #16 could be of interest in our search, but unfortunately MACR 8341 does not list any serial numbers. However, there still are four cases where no MACR could be found yet.
__________________
Best regards
Rainer Kolbicz

Crew member of http://uboat.net
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 28th July 2016, 22:37
vathra vathra is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 165
vathra is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

5, 7, 12, 17, 18, 19 can be ruled out, I checked MACRs.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 28th July 2016, 22:55
RSwank RSwank is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 2,015
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: P-38 crash in Drvar, Bosnia, in September 1944.

I think 1-4 can be ruled out because the planes were seen to crash. I think the criteria for ruling a plane out has to be the the plane was very likely seen to crash.

6 I think can be ruled out because in the MACR a couple of witnesses seem pretty sure they could see the crash location in the water about 2000-3000 feet off shore.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flieger-Regiment 71, Kampfgruppe Simon, August September 1944 France Myrdun The Second World War in General 2 25th September 2013 20:57
104 Plane crash in WWII, 30 km around of Heidelberg Area Part 1 Klaus Deschner Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 17th September 2009 08:17
104 Plane crash in WWII, 30 km around of Heidelberg Area Part 2 Klaus Deschner Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 15th September 2009 10:49
Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944 Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 13th August 2005 21:10
A-20 losses for september 29 1944 Stephane Muret Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 20th April 2005 19:56


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net