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Old 22nd February 2008, 05:41
Sylvester Stadler's Avatar
Sylvester Stadler Sylvester Stadler is offline
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Polish War Crimes

On 4 Sep 1939 the Wehrmacht established the War Crimes Bureau in response to numerous report of Polish war crimes and atrocities committed against not only German servicement but also German civilians who resided within the borders of 1939 Poland. The agency was the logical successor to the Prussian Military Bureau of Investigation of Violations of the Laws of War which had been created in 1914 to determine through the gathering of physical evidence and witness statements whether war crimes had been committed by enemy soldiers and civilians. All the eyewitness statements had to be corroborated by either physical evidence or the testimony of the captured enemy. Thus, after only three days of war, the Poles were already engaged in the violations of the laws and regulations of warfare to which the Polish government was signatory.

The most famous atrocity committed by the Poles during this period against Germans was at Bromberg on 3 September and thereafter which is called Bloody Sunday by the Germans. The German survivors gave testimony which was backed up by autopsies of the corpses. The Polish claim that all these people were insurgents who were armed is contradicted by the German survivors who stated they had no weapons and is also contradicted by captured Poles who stated that no weapons were ever found by the Poles. The victims included children one year of age and priests and men and women who were very old including 75-year olds. Autopsies confirmed that many of the victims were killed at close range in the back of the head or neck. Many were also bayonetted after capture.

At Targowisko the corpses of 46 ethnic Germans were discovered. Of these 46, the ages ranged from six month to 80 years of age. Half of them were females and 18 were children. Only five were adult males of military age. They were all murdered by firearms. The lists of massacre sites is endless but it is a fact that at least 9000 civilians of ethnic German origin were murdered by the Poles. Josef Goebbels later increased this to 58,000 which counter-productive since few in the West believed him but it also led to the West disbelieving in any Polish atrocities. To this day it is politically incorrect to accuse anyone but the Germans of war crimes.

A crime against German soldiers occurred on 9 September a musical band of 31 soldiers was captured by Polish soldiers and this group was later joined by about 16 other POWs in the area of Stopnica. They were forced into a ditch by about 60 Polish soldiers who proceeded to fire on them. About a dozen German soldiers survived, wounded. Depositions were taken of the survivors in the hospital by a military judge.

The War Crimes Bureau received around a dozen reports each day of atrocities. The military judges were very busy investigating these allegations and their reports are very thorough, with evidence that would stand up in an American court (unless the judge is a liberal bleeding heart. The War Crimes Bureau published six volumes, each of about 500 pages, of the war crimes committed by the Poles which include the following:
I. Polish atrocities in Bromberg, Pless, and Stopnica
II. Polish atrocities against German civilians and POWs in the province of Poznan
III. and IV. Violations of the laws of war by the Polish Army
V. Massacre of German civilians in Lodz
VI. Polish murders of German civilians

For the sake of history and research, the German government should release these six volumes. David Irving who uses only primary sources and documents would be an excellent writer to delve into this topic.

In the 1960s the Federal German Archives in Koblenz established a commission to determine the identity of the German victims of the Poles in September 1939. They were able to name 3841 persons. Without the cooperation of the Polish government (Communist), this is as far as the investigation allowed.
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Old 22nd February 2008, 18:50
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler View Post
On 4 Sep 1939 the Wehrmacht established the War Crimes Bureau in response to numerous report of Polish war crimes and atrocities committed against not only German servicement but also German civilians who resided within the borders of 1939 Poland. The agency was the logical successor to the Prussian Military Bureau of Investigation of Violations of the Laws of War which had been created in 1914 to determine through the gathering of physical evidence and witness statements whether war crimes had been committed by enemy soldiers and civilians. All the eyewitness statements had to be corroborated by either physical evidence or the testimony of the captured enemy. Thus, after only three days of war, the Poles were already engaged in the violations of the laws and regulations of warfare to which the Polish government was signatory.
Or was it formed to justify the aggression, after France and UK declared war on Germany on 3 September? Not to mention that Germany broke the law by starting undeclared war on 1 September.
Quote:
The most famous atrocity committed by the Poles during this period against Germans was at Bromberg on 3 September and thereafter which is called Bloody Sunday by the Germans. The German survivors gave testimony which was backed up by autopsies of the corpses. The Polish claim that all these people were insurgents who were armed is contradicted by the German survivors who stated they had no weapons and is also contradicted by captured Poles who stated that no weapons were ever found by the Poles. The victims included children one year of age and priests and men and women who were very old including 75-year olds. Autopsies confirmed that many of the victims were killed at close range in the back of the head or neck. Many were also bayonetted after capture.

At Targowisko the corpses of 46 ethnic Germans were discovered. Of these 46, the ages ranged from six month to 80 years of age. Half of them were females and 18 were children. Only five were adult males of military age. They were all murdered by firearms. The lists of massacre sites is endless but it is a fact that at least 9000 civilians of ethnic German origin were murdered by the Poles. Josef Goebbels later increased this to 58,000 which counter-productive since few in the West believed him but it also led to the West disbelieving in any Polish atrocities. To this day it is politically incorrect to accuse anyone but the Germans of war crimes.
The first German reports stated there were some 5,000+ German civilians killed in Bydgoszcz which puts credibility of your data in serious doubt. You can read about Bydgoszcz eg. here (in Polish, sorry), and it is worth to check photos there alone.
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/24/1...120032004.html
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/24/1354/nr_892004.html
I was unable to find another issue, but it had some photos of equipment found with arrested Germans already before the war, bombs hidden in fuel cans, etc.
Based on recent findings, Germans attacked Polish troops on 3 September at 10.00. After ant-diversionary action, which ended at about 16.00, death of about 30-45 Polish soldiers as well as about 90-110 Germans was confirmed. Polish troops then left the city. The following day Germans against attacked troops moving through Bydgoszcz. During intense combats some 240 Poles fell as well as up to 300 Germans, some of them executed on the spot after quick trials or Kangaroo Courts. Please note, that they were Polish citizens. German troops entered Bydgoszcz on 5 September, and within few days some 300-400 Poles were executed. Further losses of Bydgoszcz's Polish population, both to executions and deaths in camps are estimated at 28,000, 14% of Bydgoszcz's population.
Such accurate research was possible because many of Polish army documents survived as well as burial records which noted relligion, quite accurately distinguishing nationality.
Even German researchers tend to the Polish version, see eg. Guenter Schubert, Das Unternehmen Bromberger Blutsonntag. Tod einer Legende, Köln 1989.
Quote:
A crime against German soldiers occurred on 9 September a musical band of 31 soldiers was captured by Polish soldiers and this group was later joined by about 16 other POWs in the area of Stopnica. They were forced into a ditch by about 60 Polish soldiers who proceeded to fire on them. About a dozen German soldiers survived, wounded. Depositions were taken of the survivors in the hospital by a military judge.
Huh, another case. A bus with a German military orchestra entered combat zone and was fired at by Polish troops.
you can find a photo of the bus here, note it was moved to another location (market place) and burned there.
http://www.odkrywca-online.com/forum...nica_caly2.jpg
About 22-24 soldiers were taken PoW and held in a haystack. For an unknown reason it went ablaze but it was never found if it was an accident, result of German fire or if someone took revenge for execution of 11 civilians in nearby Prusy village on 7 September. It was not an organised execution as there were survivors.
http://www.stopnica.pl/page.php?id=10&s=4
Quote:
The War Crimes Bureau received around a dozen reports each day of atrocities. The military judges were very busy investigating these allegations and their reports are very thorough, with evidence that would stand up in an American court (unless the judge is a liberal bleeding heart. The War Crimes Bureau published six volumes, each of about 500 pages, of the war crimes committed by the Poles which include the following:
I. Polish atrocities in Bromberg, Pless, and Stopnica
II. Polish atrocities against German civilians and POWs in the province of Poznan
III. and IV. Violations of the laws of war by the Polish Army
V. Massacre of German civilians in Lodz
VI. Polish murders of German civilians
Well, judging by the cases of Bydgoszcz and Stopnica, it does not look very promising.
Quote:
For the sake of history and research, the German government should release these six volumes. David Irving who uses only primary sources and documents would be an excellent writer to delve into this topic.
Ah, mysterious volumes hidden in Zone 51. While I disagree with arguments of most red and pinko opponents of Irving, I was disappointed with his research for Mare's Nest. There are more other writers to deal with the subject.
Quote:
In the 1960s the Federal German Archives in Koblenz established a commission to determine the identity of the German victims of the Poles in September 1939. They were able to name 3841 persons. Without the cooperation of the Polish government (Communist), this is as far as the investigation allowed.
And at the same time they were unable to deal with Polish requests concerning German criminals. Anyway, where and when results were published?
  #3  
Old 2nd April 2008, 01:21
GrzegorzM GrzegorzM is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

"Bromberger Blutsonntag" is a term invented by Goebbels propaganda, describing invented death of over 5000 innocent Volksdeutche in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg, and 58 000-60 000 in whole Poland. It is just lie, and repeating it is repeating the Nazi lies.
When someone is asking about "Bromberger Blutsonntag", the only true and reasonable answer is that it was term invented by Nazi propaganda, and used to cheat international opinion about the real events, like the public opinions of occupied Europe was cheated, that the Jews are deported "to work in the East", while in fact they went directly to gas chambers.
According to the very German sources, exactly the "Posener Zentralstelle fuer die Graeber ermordeter Volksdeutscher" (Center of Murdered Ethnic-Germans Burial) has noted about 5500 ethnic-German Poles fallen and missing in September 1939 in WHOLE POLAND, for ALL REASONS (including 1047 soldiers of Polish Army of German origin who died during fights, and 880 German "partisans" (saboteurs?).

Of course there were acts of spontaneous hostility against ethnic Germans in September 1939, but these events weren't organised or approved by Polish army or authorities. Very often were caused by real or imagined sabotage or diversion acts of the Germans, and were part of the general "spymania" pretty popular in various countries during days of defeat (see the WWI activities of Austro-Hungarian Empire and many other examples). That 1939 "spymania" caused several spontaneous acts of violence against suspected saboteurs or "air raid spotters", but victims of that actions were harmed not on the ethnic or national basis, most important were situations (popular cause of the suspicions was using the small mirror in the open terrain, it was often considered as "signaling the artillery or airplanes").


From history of my family I have two related stories:

Father of my grandma's best friend, ethnic German, but loyal Polish citizen named Ulbrich, was head of the local school in Warsaw suburbs. Some years before the war he has fired one of the school employees (not a teacher, guy who's job was repairing things) because that employee was stealing some resources from the school. Shortly after the outbreak of the war, that former employee came to Mr. Ulbrich and "arrested" him as German spy, and later most probably murdered.

Great-grandfather of my friend, ethnic German from Bydgoszcz-Bromberg, WWI German Imperial Army veteran Jullian Olesch was sentenced to death and executed by German occupational forces in 1941 or 1942 for denying the official Nazi version of that events. I have seen original "act of death", he was executed with German precision some day "at 08.01 a.m.".

In the end, some informations from German sources, related to Bydgoszcz/Bromberg events:

Edwin Erich Dwinger, author of the Nazi book about "Bromberger Blutsonntag" in his book "Zwoelf Gespraeche" published in 1966, has condemned his own propaganda book about "Bromberger Blutsonntag". He wrote: "Counterintelligence of SS before the war outbreak has smuggled their people to Poland, in order to carry sabotage in civilian clothes. For causing explosions, for shooting to marching soldiers, for burning military depots, were then accused Volksdeutche... Polish anger has turned against them, this is one of the secrets of the "Bromberger Blutsonntag". Later Dwinger has repeated that to his son, who demanded the whole truth about his father's participation in Nazi propaganda (Susanne Feigl, Elisabeth Pable - Vдter Unser, Reflexionen von Tцchtern und Sцhnen- Wien 1988).
"this murder was reaction on shooting at marching Polish soldiers, and sabotage acts... He (his father) was convinced, that Goebbels calling him knew very well, that these events were inscenised by Main Security Reich Office" from: N. Dwinger, Leben zwischen Lenzen und Pershings (in) S. Feigl, E. Pable Vдter unser. Reflexionen von Tуchtern und Sцhnen, Wien, page 210


There are also German Sonderbericht Bromberg (Special Court Bydgoszcz/Bromberg) documents, preserved in Bydgoszcz State Archive, from trials of Polish officers accused and judged for numerous executions of Germans in early September 1939. Very interesting materials, showing that German court in 1939-42 period accepted that there was real German diversion and 5th column active in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg and accepted executions of German saboteurs as lawful actions of Polish military forces.
Wieslaw Jakubowski, commander of 6th company 59 Infantry Regt, judged for ordering shooting at German civilians, throwing grenades to German houses and execution of ethnic German Otto Rodewald. Jakubowski was accused by one of the Volksedeutche serving in his unit, Erwin Heilmann, who stated that the Polish unit was shot from gardens and houses and Jakubowski ordered to return fire. Two Polish soldiers have died and several were wounded. Heilmann also stated, that he had seen that Polish soldier has murdered German woman, and that the Polish soldiers were throwing grenades to the German houses, but asked by court how he determined that the women and the houses were German, he withdrew his testimony, and accused Jakubowski for executing German civilian, Otto Rodewald. Court found Jakubowski unguilty, stating that execution of Rodewald was justified.
Document number: Sg. 6 Sd. Js. 781/41.
Lt. Tadeusz Gorecki, 61 Inf. Rgt. judged for execution of two German civilians. Court found Gorecki unguilty, stating that execution was justified.
Document number: Sg.6 Sd.KLS.93/41.
Major Jan Gawronski, commander of Bydgoszcz Batalion of National Defence judged for execution of 6 ethnic Germans 5th September. Court found Gawronski unguilty, stating that execution was justified.
Document number: Sg. 6 Sd.KLS.31/41.
Res. Lt. Jozef Tomaszewski, 59 Inf. Rgt., judged for execution of several ethnic Germans, Court found Tomaszewski unguilty, stating that execution was justified.
Document number: Sg.5 Sd.KLS.51/54.
Lt Boleslaw Soltys from 59 Inf. Rgt. judged for execution of four German civilians. Court found Tomaszewski unguilty, stating that execution was justified.
Document number: Gerichtsgefangnis Bromberg, t XV, K. 362. t. XXVI, K. 758.
Res. Lt Stanislaw Kuczkowski from 62 Inf. Rgt., in civil life judge of Polish court, accused and judged for execution of several German civilians, captured with arms. Kuczkowski was sentenced to death, but after announcing the sentence to the court a German came, who has been a witness of the event, and who had been arrested by Kuczkowski with that group of armed Germans, and then released, as no arms were found with him. After that testimony Kuczkowski was found unguilty. Sg. 4 Sd. KLS. 10/41

  #4  
Old 2nd April 2008, 01:31
GrzegorzM GrzegorzM is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

As a counterbalance, I suggest reading review of very interesting American-written book:

Hitler Strikes Poland

Blitzkrieg, Ideology, and Atrocity

Alexander B. Rossino

New in Paperback: April 2005
xvi, 344 pages, 32 photographs, 1 map, 6-1⁄8 x 9-1⁄4
Modern War Studies
Paper ISBN 978-0-7006-1392-2, $17.95 (t)
Also available in cloth:
ISBN 978-0-7006-1234-5, $34.95 (t)
SELECTION OF THE HISTORY BOOK CLUB
SELECTION OF THE MILITARY BOOK CLUB
SELECTION OF THE READERS' SUBSCRIPTION BOOK CLUB
ONE OF THE TOP TEN BOOKS OF 2003 (STONE & STONE)
It was one of the most ruthlessly conceived and executed invasions in the annals of warfare. Hitler’s Polish campaign unleashed a blitzkrieg in which SS troops, police squads, and the army itself waged an ethnic war of unprecedented brutality. Tens of thousands of Poles—roughly 80 percent of whom were Christian—were summarily executed in acts of collective punishment. After six weeks, a country was crushed and the world was at war.
Usually given short shrift in most histories of World War II, the invasion of Poland was more than a series of opening salvos; it was a testing ground for German brutalities to come. In this first intensive study of the invasion, Alexander Rossino provides a comprehensive study of the Polish campaign, including disturbing new insights into its racist and ideological underpinnings.
Rossino tells how this invasion melded the ideology of the Nazi party with Germany’s military yearning for empire in the East. The Polish campaign was important as the first step in Hitler’s drive for “living space” for Germans in Eastern Europe, and as the blitzkrieg decimated urban residential areas, civilians soon became indistinguishable from combatants. In addition to describing military operations, Rossino also provides a close analysis of SS plans to murder Polish leaders, German army reprisal policies, and the close collaboration of Wehrmacht and SS forces in the subjugation and execution of Polish citizens.
Rossino considers both top-level decision making and the experiences of German soldiers as he explores the mentality of those who perpetrated crimes against civilians. He particularly investigates the links between Nazi racial-political policies and military action to show that Poland was merely the German army’s dress rehearsal for the later slaughter of other Slavs and Jews during the Russian campaign. By providing a detailed examination of atrocities committed by both military and SS personnel, he shows that the Wehrmacht’s criminality was clearly evident at the beginning of the war.
Hitler Strikes Poland is a startling reconstruction of history that clearly reveals the extent to which Nazi philosophy drove the German war machine. It also helps us better understand the brutality of the years that followed and better appreciate the suffering of the Polish people.
“An excellent and powerfully written book that every student of the war, the Holocaust, and Nazi Germany will have to read.”—Omer Bartov, author of Mirrors of Destruction: War, Genocide, and Modern Identity
“Up to now, Operation Tannenberg, the Nazi assault on Poland, has been overshadowed by the enormous literature on Operation Barbarossa. Rossino’s book more than corrects that imbalance with a gripping account that conveys a real feel for those grim times and places.”—Michael Burleigh, author of The Third Reich: A New History
“A signal contribution to Western knowledge about [the] German genocidal campaign in Poland.”—Polish Review
“Haunting in its graphic descriptions and photographs of atrocities, [this] book deserves a wide audience.”—International History Review
“Deeply researched and carefully crafted. . . . The amazing photographs that accompany his narrative recapture the sheer horror of the war’s very first days.”—Slavic Review
“Adds profoundly to the debate over the Wehrmacht’s complicity in war crimes and crimes against humanity.”—History: Reviews of New Books
“A powerful book and an apt documentation of an ethnic war of extreme brutality. . . . Essential reading.”—Library Journal
“A significant contribution to our understanding of World War II.”—American Historical Review
“Rossino’s fine study provides the ‘missing link’ between the traditional German expansionism of World War I and the ‘war of annihilation’ against the Soviet Union in 1941.”—Christopher Browning, author of Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland
“An important work for anyone who wants to understand the war and the Wehrmacht’s evolving relationship with National Socialism.”—Geoffrey P. Megargee, author of Inside Hitler’s High Command
ALEXANDER B. ROSSINO is a research historian who lives in Arlington, Virginia.
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Old 10th April 2008, 02:31
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Re: Polish War Crimes

There is a website that provides a list of children deported from Eastern Poland to Siberia early in the 1940s:

www.polonica.net/Lista_Polskich_Dzieci_deportowanych_4.htm

Can't help wondering whatever happened to those poor unfortunate souls!

Cordially, Art Fiedler, Mayfair35
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Old 11th April 2008, 06:51
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

Indeed, and they were worth each other Germans and Soviets.
Now, it seems some people want to turn everything upside down.
http://video.google.pl/videoplay?doc...75278224&hl=pl
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Old 11th April 2008, 07:34
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Re: Polish War Crimes

This topic give unexpected new information for me. I would like to ask something- my friend has read a long time ago book which describe that Polish was very cruel against Jewish. There was decribed few occasions where Jewish escaped from German captivity but later catch by Polish citizen and torn to death. Would any of you be kind and give me more light and truth abouth this relation Polish-Jewish.

Thank you
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Old 11th April 2008, 08:06
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

Well, it is rubbish, though indeed such stories appear, usually in the US or Canada. I cannot say if it is any rule, but such stories are usually spread by Jewes who survived the war in Soviet Union and were actively supporting Soviet occupation of Poland. There were some cases of killed Jewes indeed, but usually the background was criminal or executions of people actively supporting Soviet occupation (quite a high percentage). If there were any killings due to ethnicity, they were incidental.
Concerning books, can you read in Polish or do you need books in English?
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Old 11th April 2008, 21:12
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Polish War Crimes

The following book also deals with the topic: 'Alfred M. de Zayas. The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945' (translation of the original German version), published by Bison Books, 1995.

Chapter 13 (pages 129 to 142) deals, in details, with Poland.
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Old 11th April 2008, 23:44
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Re: Polish War Crimes

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Concerning books, can you read in Polish or do you need books in English?
Franek- your word is just fine to me Thank you for info.
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