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  #1  
Old 8th February 2011, 12:46
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Needing info on some JG 54 losses

Hello all,

In Mr Rosipal JG 54 loss list, I have the three following entries where there is no data on aircraft type and serial. Can someone provide them ?

27 July 1944: Ofhr Heinz Haase of 6./JG 54 bailed out in Pl.Qu 12487 after an air battle but was killed.

2 October 1944: Gefr Theodor Jasper of 14./JG 54 died in an accident in Zerbst area (possibly a ground loss).

2 December 1944: Uffz. Helmut Grube of 16./JG 54 bailed out and was wounded near Ahlen.

Thanks in advance

Laurent
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  #2  
Old 8th February 2011, 19:40
karl lusink karl lusink is offline
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Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti View Post
Hello all,

In Mr Rosipal JG 54 loss list, I have the three following entries where there is no data on aircraft type and serial. Can someone provide them ?

27 July 1944: Ofhr Heinz Haase of 6./JG 54 bailed out in Pl.Qu 12487 after an air battle but was killed.

2 October 1944: Gefr Theodor Jasper of 14./JG 54 died in an accident in Zerbst area (possibly a ground loss).

2 December 1944: Uffz. Helmut Grube of 16./JG 54 bailed out and was wounded near Ahlen.

Thanks in advance

Laurent
Hello
Gefreiter Theodor Jasper 14./JG 54 (Born:22/04/1924)
Verlustmeldung gives: 07-10-1944
"bei Zerbst" , Feindflug: Nein
Row 17 (Unfall)gives an A (Absturz ?)
Grablage:Friedhof Zerbst
Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA
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  #3  
Old 8th February 2011, 22:49
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Jim P.
Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

I have them all as Fw 190A-8s, though the last two could be A-9s. No WNr. with any of them.
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  #4  
Old 8th February 2011, 23:02
Khorat Khorat is offline
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Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

Grube is given a Fw 190 A-9 serial 79090 (790090), damage is given 60 % which suggest more a emergency landing (source GQM),

nothing for Jasper,

Haase only Fw 190 A

khorat
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  #5  
Old 9th February 2011, 12:19
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

Thanks to all three for your replies. I will summarize below what I now have about these three men.

27 July 1944: Ofhr Heinz Haase

Rosipal list said Ofhr Heinz Haase of 6./JG 54 bailed out in Pl.Qu 12487 after an air battle but was killed.
The summary of Luftwaffe losses show only one aircraft damaged by enemy aircraft during the day for II./JG 54, but IV./JG 54 reported on 4 August that one of its aircraft was shot down by enemy aircraft on 27 July. There is no trace of this one in Rosipal list, and as 6./JG 54 became 16./JG 54 in August 1944, this reported loss may be Haase.
Volskbund has an Ofw Heinz Haase who died on 27 July 1944 2 km SW of Sieciechow, Poland (http://www.maplandia.com/poland/mazo...ce/sieciechow/), that is only some km away from the then base of IV./JG 54, Deblin. This is also the Pl.Qu 25 Ost/12487 listed by Rosipal.
According to the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, II./JG 54 lost during the month of July 1944 due to enemy action 1 Fw 190 A-4, 4 Fw 190 A-5, 8 Fw 190 A-6 and 1 Fw 190 A-8. IV./JG 54 lost during the month of July 1944 due to enemy action 21 Fw 190 A-8.
Jim P said Haase was lost flying a Fw 190A-8.

Current state of research: place and date of death are confirmed, with a question mark on the rank of the pilot (Ofhr or Ofw). All sources agree that the aircraft was a Fw 190 A, and probably a Fw 190 A-8 as Haase was probably allready flying with IV./JG 54 then, and his loss was probably reported as a IV./JG 54 one, all being A-8 this month.


2 October 1944: Gefr Theodor Jasper

Rosipal list said Gefr Theodor Jasper of 14./JG 54 died in an accident in Zerbst area (possibly a ground loss).
Karl Lusink gave another date for his death, 7 Oct 1944:
Gefreiter Theodor Jasper 14./JG 54 (Born:22/04/1924)
Verlustmeldung gives: 07-10-1944
"bei Zerbst" , Feindflug: Nein
Row 17 (Unfall)gives an A (Absturz ?)
Grablage:Friedhof Zerbst
There is no trace of Jasper in Volksbund database (not uncommon for an airman being killed in Germany) so no help here to confirm one date or the other.
The summary of Luftwaffe losses show no loss for JG 54 on 2 October, but IV./JG 54 reported six aircraft destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight on the 7th (two reported on the 13th and four on the 17th) and 6 other damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight (reported between the 13th and 17th). The loss of Jasper described by Lusink (Unfall, Feindflug: Nein) fits perfectly one of them.
By checking Rosipal list for 7 Oct 1944, there are two losses this day, both for IV./JG 54:
_ the first is a Fw 190 A-8 of 14./JG 54 that force-landed in Zerbst area due to engine problems. The Staffel and area are the same as what Rosipal listed for Jasper on the 2nd.
_ the second is the Fw 190 A-9 WNr 750092 of 15./JG 54 that was destroyed in a forced-landing on Delitzsch airfield, near Leipzig, during a ferry flight. The pilot, Fhr Bruno Schmidt, was unhurt.
Both losses are given with ?% damage by Rosipal, but in the details of the second it is indicated that it broke on landing.
According to the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, IV./JG 54 lost during the month of October 1944 5 Fw 190 A-8 and 1 Fw 190 A-9, all without enemy action. The summary of Luftwaffe losses show 9 total losses for the month, all without enemy action on non-operational flights.
Last point, on 7 October 1944 IV./JG 54 changed base, moving from Plantlünne to Mörtitz.
Jim P had Jasper listed with a Fw 190A-8, but it may also be an A-9.

Current state of research: all available data confirms the date of 7 October 1944 given in the Verlustmeldung, and so I will consider Rosipal was wrong there (no critics here, he had far less available data that we have now). Then my interpretation of the above is that the ferry flight for the base change of IV./JG 54 went terribly wrong, with at least a dozen aircraft being reported missing and the fate of the last ones only being reported ten days later. I guess the pilots had been scattered and landed here and there. As the other named pilot, Jasper had a low rank and so was probably a new pilot with few training, an usual thing in 1944. He was killed in Zerbst area this day, probably during this flight. Given the incoherences between the two sources about the monthly losses of IV./JG 54, I will only list his aircraft as a Fw 190 A.

Question: can someone confirm the story of this ferry flight of IV./JG 54? It seems to me a book exists on this unit in the last year of the war, but I was unable to find it on the Net.

2 December 1944: Uffz. Helmut Grube

Rosipal said Uffz. Helmut Grube of 16./JG 54 bailed out and was wounded near Ahlen. His aircraft (no type or WNr given) is listed at a 100% loss.
Khorat said that Grube was flying a Fw 190 A-9 serial 79090 (790090), damage is given 60 % which suggest more a emergency landing (source GQM).
The summary of Luftwaffe losses show one loss for JG 54 this day, an aircraft of IV./JG 54 being destroyed without enemy action on an operational flight.

Current state of research: I will rather believe Khorat, but I am surprised that the source is listed a GQM. I didn't think GQM reports for December 1944 survived.


All comments and addition welcome.

Laurent
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  #6  
Old 9th February 2011, 17:46
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Leutnant Heinz Wernicke

Hi guys

Interesting topic and while on the subject I would like to request some help on a somewhat related matter. Leutnant Heinz Wernicke (117 victories, RK), Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 54, was killed in a mid-air collision with his wingman Unteroffizier Wollien during aerial combat over Schrunden near Doblen on 27 December 1944. Would anyone have at the very least the subtype of the two aircraft involved, either Fw 190 A-8 or A-9? Unfortunately there does not appear to be anything on this incident even sourced from WASt material for what I understand.

Horrido!

Leo
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Old 9th February 2011, 20:00
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

Hi Leo,

Using the same sources as above:
_ Summary of Luftwaffe losses show two aircraft destroyed without enemy action on operational flight for I./JG 54 on 27 Dec 1944.

_ Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for I./JG 54 on December 1944 show that while Fw 190 A of several subtypes were lost by enemy action, only Fw 190 A-8 (9 of them) were lost without enemy action. Same source show only two Fw 190 A-9 lost by I./JG 54 this month, both by enemy action. No trace in Rosipal list. Last data, during the month, I./JG 54 used 31 Fw 190 A-8 (14 at start of the month, received 17 and lost the same number destroyed or seriously damaged) compared to only 7 Fw 190 A-9 (7 at start, none received, two lost by enemy action and one sent to repair).

_ according to Rosipal, the collision occured "after an air battle", not during it. As Schrunden was then the base of I./JG 54, it is possible that the collision actually occured while they were returning to base after an air battle.

By the way Schrunden (then) = Skrunda, Latvia (now). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrunda
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  #8  
Old 9th February 2011, 21:50
Khorat Khorat is offline
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Re: Needing info on some JG 54 losses

sorry - for this two also only Fw 190 A given.

khorat
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  #9  
Old 10th February 2011, 16:02
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Leutnant Heinz Wernicke

Hello Laurent and khorat

Many thanks for your excellent help in this question. At least now I know that the incident did not occur in aerial combat as I previously thought and that it is nearly certain that both aircraft were Fw 190 A-8 subtypes. One more minor mystery cleared up and I thank both of you for your time.

Horrido!

Leo
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