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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

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  #11  
Old 16th April 2017, 18:18
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Did RAF Circuses and Ramrods stop von Bock in front of Moscow? Did the dislocation of few fighter groups to Libya prevent von Paulus from winning at Stalingrad?


The thousands of high experimented crews lost over Britain in 1940, a very very great help to the soviets even if the ..event stated place one year before, to say simple Germany against Britain, nd I dont speak of France, no match, Germany against Russland no match, Germany against America, it's worth some bet, no need to go in the détails for all these questions .

Rémi
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  #12  
Old 16th April 2017, 22:24
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

and look at 1941 too Rémi. Not specifically covered by Dan, but the 'non-stop' offensive over France comes in for hefty criticism by air-war historians - even if the Jagdwaffe inflicted heavy losses on Fighter Command, in the course of so-doing it lost the equivalent of two full Geschwader between June-December 1941 (see Roba's recent study ) I think Dan has a point concerning the Luftwaffe's permanent and chronic deficiency in fighters and the late introduction of the Fw 190 in the East which is directly relevant here..
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  #13  
Old 16th April 2017, 23:17
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Well Dan, I will be brief. Having read your work via the link I can say you have done a useful job by bringing together the numbers that you use to reach your conclusions. I do not believe you have reached the correct conclusions.
Also, in your work you consistently draw a distinction between the Allies and the USSR and this is expressed again in your posts. The USSR was a member of the Allies.

Bruce
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  #14  
Old 16th April 2017, 23:17
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Dan, thank you very much for your work and huge amount of statistical data. But I have problem with understanding: the east front is responsible for the 50% of losses of LW between 41 and 43. The other 50% can be distributed between RAF, USAAF, RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF, RSAAF, and not to forget RRAF :-)

How you come to the conlusion: "Western air power defeated the Luftwaffe and therefore enabled the USSR to survive"?
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  #15  
Old 16th April 2017, 23:34
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Thank you Dan.

I will add this, tho it is from Sept 43 to Oct 44.

http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/thtrlosses.htm
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  #16  
Old 17th April 2017, 00:07
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Dan,


Thank you very much for bringing more information to researchers. It is a welcome sight to see new blood entering the field. I know when I first started I was met with so much detail and abbreviations that it took a while to get up to speed. Now, regarding your study, I understand why you took such a narrow view. Keep in mind that the British and Russians were flying American aircraft through Lend-Lease. And flak units did not just rely on spotters, or listening devices or searchlights, but radar as well. They also improvised, providing upgrade kits so that other weapons could be attached to Luftwaffe aircraft in the field.

Finally, the Luftwaffe had its own Allies flying air missions for them. See:

https://www.amazon.com/Skies-Europe-.../dp/1861267991

As far as radar, see Radarkrieg und Nachtluftverteidigung über Berlin 1939-1945 by Helmut Bukowski. ISBN 978-3-86619-012-2


I think you should consider a side by side comparison with the Luftwaffe and their opposition. For example, German aircraft had fuel injection while British aircraft did not, at least early in the time period in question. The effectiveness of Allied bombing was bad, especially in the early period. The Germans had built false walls around their factories. This meant that if a bomb exploded nearby, the outer wall would take the brunt of the damage. Prior to the start of the war, the Germans designed the interiors of their factories so that any bomb damage could be quickly repaired.

They also put debris on the roof to fool Allied reconnaissance.




Best regards,
Ed
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  #17  
Old 17th April 2017, 00:25
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Dear Dan,

"The charge of "historical revisionism" may have been considered appropriate in a meeting of an Eastern block Communist party, but such an attack only invites contempt in the civilised world."

So, I must be a Party bureaucrat coming from a Eastern Block country attacking academic from a civilized world who made public a conclusion which has nothing to do with academical historical research whatsoever. This gives me a hint that you might have been influenced by prejudices even before you started your research.

"You are entitled to strongly disagree with my conclusions, but you are not entitled to adopt the Soviet position, "I have not read it, but I condemn it"."

My position comes from decades of reading and learning. And you are wrong, I read your conclusion (and intro at "The Luftwaffe") and it is "Western air power defeated the Luftwaffe and therefore enabled the USSR to survive". I respect your effort of going to BA and producing a study in the first place, but if this is the supreme result of your work, it speaks for itself.

"I invite you to read my study in order to see the evidence that Western air operations drew critically important Luftwaffe resources away from the Eastern front. This can be seen particularly clearly during both the battle of Moscow and the battle of Stalingrad. German flying units were withdrawn from the Eastern front and redeployed to the Mediterranean before both of these Soviet counter-offensives."

OK, before reading your study, let's see the long list of Luftwaffe fighter units withdrawn from the central section of the Eastern Front and redeployed to Med in the autumn of 1941:
1. Stab JG 3
2. II./JG 3
3. III./JG 3
4. Stab JG 27
5. III./JG 27
6. III./JG 53

And that would be it, 168 Bf 109s at Sollstarke, or in reality some 120 operational machines that could have changed the outcome of the war and of the battle involving millions of armed men! But, even for these, there is a small glitch: each of these units was withdrawn to the Reich for rest and re-equipment but when the weather deteriorated to such an extent in the east, decision was taken to send some to the Med for time being. So the JG 3 returned to the east in 1942.
And another note: from the five Ju 88 groups dispatched against Malta in late 1941, none came from the Moscow front.

For the Unternehmen Taifun HGr. Mitte had 14 Panzer divisions, 8 motorized divisions, 46 infantry divisions, 6 security divisions and single cavalry division, some 500 operational aircraft, altogether cca. 1.5 million combatants on its strength. What impact did the "Western air power" had on these men? How did it save USSR from defeat in its most critical hour? How in the earth could you draw the conclusion which you did?

Shall I go in details about Stalingrad? Just compare the size of DAK at the time of Second El Alamein Battle and Axis forces at Stalingrad.

Hi Remi,

"The thousands of high experimented crews lost over Britain in 1940, a very very great help to the soviets even if the ..event stated place one year before, to say simple Germany against Britain, nd I dont speak of France, no match, Germany against Russland no match, Germany against America, it's worth some bet, no need to go in the détails for all these questions."

Yes, and the gallant resistance of Poland, Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Greece... All of them contributed to the victory against the Axis and made the job easier for the Brits, Soviets, and later Americans. But lump assertions won't help us understand the greatest undertaking in mankind history. Otherwise you personally wouldn't have spent thousands of hours in NA, BA and other archives.

Back in school, we in ex-Yugoslavia were taught that the assault on our country in April 1941 postponed Unternehmen Barbarossa for crucial six weeks and this was what enabled Red Army to make it by the arrival of winter. It sounded so nice, our great defeat had a meaning, our sacrifice ultimately saved the world. Of course, now I know that it was as far from truth as the above mentioned sentence involving the Western air power.

Boris
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  #18  
Old 17th April 2017, 10:53
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Perhaps it's time for everyone who hasn't already to go away and read Adam Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" — it's basic thesis being that Germany had far too little industrial capacity for the war it embarked on.
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  #19  
Old 17th April 2017, 10:54
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

If I may add my two cents...
Western air offensive did not build up its momentum before early 43. At that time, Moscow had long been secured, the battle at Stalingrad was over and Leningrad was still holding on.
There's no way stating that RAF and USAAF helped in any way the Red Army to hold the ground.
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  #20  
Old 17th April 2017, 20:21
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Re: I have just written a new analysis of Luftwaffe resource distribution - it is on Michael Holm's website

Hi Dan,


As a professional researcher (low level as far as the Luftwaffe), I think you need to expand your field of view. I think I know what you're trying to do, but an issue like this needs to be looked at from many angles.

https://www.amazon.com/Western-Allie.../dp/1138927376


Based on my research, the reason the war was won was sheer strength of numbers on the Allied side. And it wasn't just the air arm but ground troops, armor, artillery, etc. I encourage you to keep at it. Perseverance is the first thing.



Usual disclaimer,
Ed
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