Staka 3./ZG 26 (again)

[CJE]

Here are two photos of U8+AL most probably flown by the Staka of 3./ZG 26.
The first one depicts WNr. 3583 which crash-landed at Cap Gris-Nez on 30 August 1940; it was wrongly attributed to Ulrich Freiherr von Gravenreuth (who was not flying with ZG 26).
The second shows another U8+AL taken a few weeks later (with full BoB markings).
On this forum, I read that Oberleutnant Josef Graf von und zu Hoensbroech led 3./ZG 26 after the demise of Hans-Jürgen Kirchhoff (18.08.40).
However, both De Zang/Stankey and John Vasco wrote that he was Staka 1./ZG 26. And I have some doubts about Hoensbroech having claimed 5 victories (look at the rudder).
Any help would be most welcome.
Thanks.

Chris

[Chris Goss]

Chris

I believe that Spies took over 1/ZG 26 after Kogler. Oblt Wolfgang Graf von Hoensbroech's name is mentioned for 1 Staffel but I have this chap as a Leutnant killed with 13/KG 40 on 8 Sep 42 so Josef would be more likely. I have no names after Kirchoff's demise. If you are interested, I have 2 original photos of the crash-landed Bf 110 on the beach. According to Lt Joachim Koepsel's (1/ZG 26 to 19 Aug 40 and then 3/ZG 26 until POW 27 Sep 40) Flugbuch, the St Kap who signed his logbook off after his capture was a Hptm which could not have been Josef von Hoensbroech who as still an Oblt in Feb 42. The confusion arises in that H wrote to the relatives of a crew lost 11 Aug 40-Kogler was recovering from being shot down the same day so perhaps there was a gap between then and Spies taking over. Spies was then wounded a month later still as St Kap of 1/ZG 26. Like Koepsel moving to 3 Staffel after 18 Aug 40, perhaps he accompanied Hoensbroech but that still doesn't explain who signed the logbook. H doesn't figure after 1942-perhaps this is why?

http://www.volksbund.de/index.php?id...rlustsuche_pi2[gid]=8c7b89b52d478efb75a9c55aa5c64bcb

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I'm trying to sort out the same information for our EoE color profile of the 2nd U8+AL, based upon the same set of ECPA photos that CJE is using. A few years ago our EoE research team acquired a very detailed roster of flying personnel and missions flown by personnel from 3./ZG26 during 1939-40. This included both pilots and BF.

From the beginning of the war (01.09.39) to 15.01.40 the Sta Kap was Hptm Friedrich Karl Dickoré. The unit converted from the Bf109D-1 to the Bf110C about 12.15.39, during the period of his command (flew a total of 18 missions). He was replaced as Sta Kap by a Hptm FNU Albrecht (5 missions), who apparently transferred out about 02.40.

The Sta Kap from 5.2.40 to 4.7.40 (LOCS Bio or 30.6.40 our mission summary) was Oblt Paul Förster (flew 49 missions). The unit was taken over by Oblt Hans-Jürgen Kirchhoff (flew only 6 missions), who was SD and KIA off the French coast in a Bf110D-0 on 18.8.40. His successor was apparently a Hptm FNU Moller (6 missions with unit) who transferred to night fighters about 01.10.40. I cannot find a "Moller" among the many listed on the LOCS that might give us a first name and more bio information.

Moller was followed by Hptm Gerhard Schoen, who then moved up to be a Gr Kdr on 23.11.40 (or 28.11.40 according to the LOCS) after 21 combat missions with 3./ZG26. According to the LOCS he took over as Gr Kdr of III./NJG1 on 11.7.40. According to information from "Merlin," the 3./ZG26 Sta Kap appointed in Nov, 1940 was Josef von Hoensbröch, who apparently succeeded Hptm Schoen. Von Hoensbröch isn't on the EoE roster, so as Chris Goss suggests, he may have moved from 1 Staffel to 3 Staffel in late November, 1940, and wasn't picked up by the list so late in the year. He may not have flown any missions with the 3 Staffel through the end of the year, and thus not have been listed.

Back to Chris Ehrengardt's question, I have no info on which of the Sta Kap the Bf110 U8+AL with five victory tabs, depicted in the ECPA Collection photos, could have been. If U8+AL was the Sta Kap a/c it would have had to have been the a/c of either Moller or Schoen, whose victory tallies are unknown to me.

The Bf110C-4 U8+AL that FL on the beach N of Wissant near Cap Blanc Nez, France, on 30.08.40 would apparently have been Moller's a/c, if it was being flown by the Sta Kap at that time. It is very likely, that at least the 2nd U8+AL (5 vict tabs) was not regularly assigned to the Sta Kap, but perhaps some other pilot. Since we don't have the individual victory claims for I./ZG26, it is impossible to know who this scoreboard may have represented during the Sept-Oct time frame (white nose).

I hope this helps. If anyone can provide the first name of either Albrecht or Moller (or Möller), or any information on the victory tallies for any of these pilots, please let me know.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

After posting the above, I've done some more digging and I think that there is a strong possibility that the U8+AL Bf110 with five victory tabs on the fin was piloted by Oblt. Johannes Kiel. The Ring/Balke I./ZG26 victory list under (turks) gives his estimated victories as five on 01.10.40, which would be about right to match the date for the ECPA photos. With all the turbulence in the leadership of 3 Staffel during this period, as the #2 pilot in the unit, Kiel may have taken over U8+AL during the latter part of 1940. These "estimated" victories are often fairly unreliable, when we've been able to confirm them with updated information, but Ring had to have created Kiel's victory list from something. That's where I'd put my money.

[CJE]

Wow! That's an answer!
Thanks Larry. I could not expect more.

Chris

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

This morning I got a major update on everything that we know about the personnel of 3./ZG26. EoE member André Stewart has been working on I./ZG26 and has pulled together every German record source, including access to all the EKM data and individual personnel files. When I posted the above info, I was relying on an earlier version of his research, which he has now updated for me.

The most important points to update:

1) Hptm Albrecht is Karl Albrecht, and he apparently was never a Sta Kap in 3 Staffel, but did fly with the unit on 5 CM and scored no victories with it. He apparently left the unit on 10.08.40.

2) Hptm Moller (or Möller) was actually Hptm Kurt Holler, who was also never a Sta Kap in the unit and did fly 6 CM and scored no victories with 3 Staffel. He transferred to the NJG, apparently leaving the unit on 05.10.40.

3) André has doubts that Oblt. Hans-Jürgen Kirchoff, KIA on 18.08.40, was a Sta Kap with 3 Staffel. He flew only 6 CM with the unit, and scored no victories with it. However, evidence indicates that Hptm Schoen, his successor, was transferred to 3 Staffel on 19 August, the day after Kirchoff was lost, supporting the idea that Kirchoff was the Sta Kap, or at least the acting one.

4) We now assess the Sta Kap of the unit as:

a) Hptm Griedrich-Karl Dickore, who flew 18 CM and scored 1 Vict with the unit.

b) Oblt Paul Förster was second Sta Kap. He flew 49 CM and scored 3 vict with the unit. He transferred out on 03.07.40.

c) Förster's successor could be Kirchoff (see #3 above) but there is some doubt about this. There is no proof of that in any records André's been able to find that he was the Sta Kap. As stated above, he flew 6 missions with 3 Staffel and scored no victories.

f) The next Sta Kap, from at least 19.08.40, was Hptm Gerhard Schoen, who transferred out on 28 Nov. 1940. He flew 21 CM with the unit and scored no victories.

g) According to Chris Goss, he was succeeded by Josef von Hoensbröch, probably on 29 Nov 1940. At least to the end of 1940, he flew no CM nor scored any victories with 3 Staffel.

h) He was apparently succeeded by Oblt. Johannes Kiel in April, 1941, but that gets beyond the period of the EoE research project.

We have a full listing for 29 pilots with their full names and ranks, number of CM flown, and victories scored with the unit (Staffel total of 34) by each. The highest scorer while with 3 Staffel was Lt Walter Manhart with 8, followed by Oblt Günther Specht with 6 (some with the Stab) and Obfw Franz Steigleder with 4. This bears on the photo CJE asked about as it would appear that it could only have been the a/c of Manhart or Specht, and certainly not Josef Kiel, unless he transferred into the unit, was assigned U8+AL, but never flew any CM with 3 Staffel to the end of 1940, which seems unlikely. He flew no combat missions nor scored any victories with 3 Staffel during 1939-40, according to the Staffel master list we have. This means that the Hans Ring "estimated" five victories for him with 3 Staffel during the BoB is wrong, at least pertaining to his Staffel assignment. However, Kiel is supposed to have been with 3 Staffel when he was shot down and captured on 07.04.40 (released upon the surrender of France in late June). That certainly should have counted as a CM. It is unclear what unit he returned to after release. He was SD again and uninjured on 18.08.40 in U8+BH, which was a 1 Staffel a/c. Most likely he was associated with 1 Staffel for the rest of 1940. He remains a "mystery man" with the unit.

We have the same info as above for all all the 3 Staffel Bordfunkers, with many of them now associated with their pilots. It is interesting to note that the unit master list indicates that no 3 Staffel BF was credited with a victory during 1939-40.

We've spent so much time dissecting 3 Staffel because I./ZG26 is one of the Gruppe for which most of the unit's records, such as KTBs and victory lists, no longer exist (at least that we know of). We're attempting to do the same with the Gruppenstab, and the other two Staffel, but it is much more complicated and fragmentary without a master list such as we have for 3 Staffel. Anyone who can clear up issues here or provide additional info on I./ZG26 personnel, Sta Kap assignments and/or victories we would appreciate hearing from.

Regards,

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Many thanks to all for the very interesting discussion regarding this rather little-known area of Luftwaffe research. I am wondering if any additional information is known about the incident on 18 August 1940 involving Leutnant Johannes Kiel. I only know that this aircraft was Bf 110 C-4 "U8 + BH" and he had to perform an emergency landing at Clairmarais. Are any other details known?

Horrido!

Leo

[Larry Hickey]

Leo,

In checking our EoE LW Loss DB, this doesn't match up with the incident ascribed to Kiel UH+BH.

What we have in the DB:
"18 August 1940: 1./ZG26 Messerschmitt Bf110C-4. Crashed on landing at Clairmarais damaged in combat with fighters during bomber escort sortie over southern England. FF Lt Joachim Koepsell and BF Uffz Johann Schmidt unhurt. Aircraft U8+BH 10% damaged - repairable."

Since we have the Koepsell FB, I'm pretty sure that the earlier attribution of this to Kiel is not correct. Will have to check on this further.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Larry

Many thanks for your prompt response. I am very grateful for the clarification as indeed I did come across mention of this particular incident having involved Leutnant Joachim Koepsell and Unteroffizer Johann Schmidt so I must say I was somewhat confused. I understand that these two were later shot down in Bf 110 C-4 "U8 + GL" (W.Nr. 3352) of 3./ZG 26 in aerial combat with Hurricane fighters near Haydon Farm on 27 September 1940 with fatal results for Schmidt.

Horrido!

Leo