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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Hello all friends and members! I am one more time asking help to understand and research the combat that claimed Oblt Werner Uhlig, shot down on 17th September 1944 - as previously answered by very kind friends of the Forum.
I have been looking at my "small" archives and this is what I found ( below ). Yes, I did not have a lot of information about the HOUR / PLACES of combat of USAF and RAF fighters for that day...Could someone help me? KNOWN FACTS: 17 SEPTEMBER 1944 USAF LOSSES ( KNOWN UP TO NOW ) Please, I would like to know the hour and place of these losses, if possible 4 F.G. Lt. Clifford E. Holske ( POW ) – P51D serial 44-14054, WD-I ( 335th FS ) 361FG Lt Woodrow W. Glover ( KIA ) – P51B “Mary Jane” serial 42-106944, E9-A 78FG Capt. Donald C. Hart ( Returned ) – P47D “Vee Gaille III”, serial 42-26330, MX-H 364FG Lt Harry Johnson Jr. ( KIA ) – P51D “Dosey Doates”, serial 44-13866, N2-V Lt Douglas R Drysdale ( Evaded ) – P51D “Lovin´Aline” serial 44-14025, 5E-T 359FG Lt Harold R. Burt ( KIA ) –P51C serial 42-103785, IV-K 353FG Lt Robert N. Greeve ( KIA ) – P47D “Patricia Baby”, serial 42-75815, YJ-E LUFTWAFFE LOSSES ( IDEM ) ( JG 26 claimed a total of 7 P-51 shot down that day on two separate missions! First mission apparently from III/JG 26. Claims between 14:40hs-14:58hs. Second mission apparently by II/JG 26. They claimed 3 Spitfires and 3 P-51 between 17:51 and 18:08hs ) Uffz Helmut Gross ( KIA ) .8/JG 26 – Hoxfeld/Borken by P51 Uffz Johann Holzleitner ( KIA ) .8/JG 26 – Bocholt by P51 Maj. Klaus Mietusch ( KIA ) OC III/JG 26 – Rath/Aldekerk by P51 ( It seems that he was shot down by1/Lt William R. Beyer of 376th FS of 361st FG ) Uffz Artur Neumann .4/JG 26 at Kleve by Spitfires RAF ( apparently on another mission or Area ) – some clues about the time and which RAF Squadrons II/JG 26 met that day? JG 6 ( claimed 2 P-51 shot down near Emmerich-Doesburg and Helmond between 16:35 and 17:00hs ) Oblt Werner Uhlig .5/JG 6 shot near Koln, patrol Kleve/Nijmegen Shot down by Spitfires of RAF or P-51 from USAF? Any information on the RAF and USAF side ( hour / place ) would be very nice. Up to now I saw that only the above mentioned 8 AF Squadrons suffered losses that day... Glad as ever Adriano |
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
hello
4 FG 1/Lt Clifford F Holske Jr crashed at Vardingholt Germany, Holske KIA time approx. 14.40h Holske reburried in USA 361 FG 1/Lt Woodrow W Glover crashed at Grubbenvorst, Holland 15.30 h shot down by railway Flak, KIA Ardennes:C-2-7 364 FG Lt Harry Johnson Jr according to my information MIA (south of Arnhem) 1/Lt Douglas R. Drysdale, hit by Flak, bailed out South of Mill(Evaded) 359 FG a/c crashed at St Hubert, Holland, 12.50h 2/Lt Harold R Burt engine overheat, W of Antwerp, Polder St Anne 353 FG 2/Lt Robert N Greene, crashed near Wekerom/Lunteren, Holland KIA Ardennes-22-12 time 12.45 h best wishes! Karl Lusink ARGA |
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
sorry some things went wrong!
a/c crashed at St Hubert. Holland, 12.50h = a/c of Drysdale! Robert N Greene buried in Ardennes: D-22-12 Karl Lusink ARGA |
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Karl thanks a lot for the information. It will hep quite a lot to match the Luftwaffe claims and the USAF losses. But, may I ask you IF there were other casualties or if those posted there are the only ones recorded by the 8th AF?
Glad for your precious help! Adriano |
#5
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
I was always intrigued by a story described in One Bridge Too Far - a US fighter crash landed nearby airborne troops, and its pilot just took a carbine to finish the Flak position which had just downed him.
Any clue or is it another fairy tale? |
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Hello Adriano:
Note that the USAAF Chronology site lists US fighter losses for 17 Sept 1944 in support of MARKET GARDEN as 6 P47s and 7 P 51s (plus 3 and 2 respectively damaged beyond repair): http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii...ml/Sep.44.html As the fighters were assigned to attack flak positions and other ground targets, it seems reasonable to assume a number of the above losses were due to ground fire. Anyway, the above indicates the total number of USAAF fighter losses that need to be accounted for. Good luck. Don |
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Hello Boomerang!
Thanks a lot for this site and for helping on the thread! I will check the information and make my cross-checking to find what, who and where - the main questions of "new journalism"... Will soon be posting more news about the claims and losses...Thanks again and have a nice week! Adriano |
#8
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Quote:
4 FG 2/Lt Nicolas W Vozzy (KIA) crashed at Hoxfeld, Germany, 14.35 h shot down by Fw 190 - Ardennes B-38-15 56 FG Lt Edward M Albright Jr (KIA) hit by Flak nr Zoelen, Holland. buried in USA 356 FG 1/Lt Howell L Broxton (evaded) hit by Flak , bellied in nr Milsbeek, Holland. 12.10h F/O John P Tucker (KIA) crashed nr Elst, Holland, recovered after the war: Luxembourg: G-5-3 Capt Westwood H Fletcher hit by Flak,bellied in SE of Elst, Evaded. 479 FG Capt George K Sykes(evaded) hit by Flak, force landed in a field west of Ede, Holland. 12.45 h Cheers Karl ARGA www.arga-nl.nl |
#9
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Re: 17th September 1944 - P51 versus Fw 190 of II/JG 6
Karl,
Thank you for adding those losses to my overall knowledge. I checked a lot of FG histories and think that passed without noticing those losses! Thanks a lot! The loss of Lt Vozzy of 4th FG only confirms my "guess" on the 3 main combats that day, although I did not found yet the victor of Oblt Werner Uhlig of .5/ JG 6. But thanks a lot for helping me and adding to my knowledge. Yours sincere and friendly Adriano |
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