Two searchless German bombers 4.Apr.1943

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello friends,

4.Apr.1943 Russian AA batteries on Kuban made two strange He111 claims. Both bombers fell between Slawjanskaja and Krasnoarmejskaja (~70 km WNW Krasnodar) on the evening, both were discovered (at least it was stated in the claim reports).

1. Plane "operative No." KS-50 [?], motor Daimler Benz No.32258, produced by Neubrandenburg-Siemens in 1940. 2nd motor not mentioned, maybe burned awey. Crew was absent.

2. Plane with tail No.FF8185 [1st letter is written clearly as Russian "Г" but evidently it means "F"], board code 5-IKF, left wing has burned away, right motor Benz Leipzig No. PMMW211-F-1 produced by "Stammwok Dessow" [as written] in 12.1942. Crew was absent.

Both claims are absent in the Nord-Caucasian Front operative report so probably both claims were not confirmed officially. Both planes are absent in GQM returns for 4.Apr.1943 also. Looks like the AA personnel has reported about wrecks of the planes crashed several weeks or months before. Details in the reports seem strange also.

DB-powered plane was maybe old version of He111 or Dornier?
Board code 5-IKF maybe 5J+ with misplaced last two letters, i.e. 2./KG4 plane.
Or it was Hungarian or Romanian plane(s)?
Whether the motor serial Nos look real? If so, where and when they (or close serial numbers) were used?

Best regards,
Andrey

[RT]

Second plane, is pretty documented at least , lost with KG4 /5J+.S on 10.Febr.43 PQ 8686, crew safe, 2 wounded , probably wreck with front linie moving return in russian side, 8656 is ca.30 km NO Slawjanskaja


First one using DB engines is a P model, KGrzbv20 is the smarter contender, but no losses around that area , or a plane of the III.KG4 lost near Guzowka ...

Rémi

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Rémi!

So one of the cases is probably resolved. What is the WNr of the He111 from KG4?

2nd case (1st in the list) still unclear.

Best regards,
Andrey

[RT]

8185, what else ??, only way to hv found it

Rémi

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Rémi!

So WNr written on the tail is correct in the document. Good!

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andreas Brekken]

Hello, Andrey

Could you post the original russian text for the description of the first aircraft?

Regards,
Andreas B

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, Andrey

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Could you post the original russian text for the description of the first aircraft?

My handwritten extract from the act about downed plane:
=================
Самолет разбит, экипаж бежал. Заводской №32258 выпуска 1940 Deimler Benz AG, мотор №32258. Тип мотора - Даймлер Бенц выпуска 1940, фирма Neubrandenburg-Siemens, оперативный номер KS-50, условные знаки - крест и свастика.
=================
So No.32258 mentioned twice - as plane's WNr and motor's WNr.
In first two cases the same sole discovered motor is mentioned undoubtedly.
KS-50 - probably board code though it looks strange. Or it was Rumanian or Hungarian aircraft, but swastika contradict to this assumption.
Or maybe KS-50 = Stkz KS+SO

Best regards,
Andrey

[Merlin]

Stammkennzeichen KS+Sx were used for Fw 190A-6 and Ju 88G-6 but no for He 111.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Gerhard!

So my guess about Stkz is rootless.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andrey/Remi

One inherent problem with WNr 8185 is the date.
The Soviet report dated (?) or incident said to have happened on 4 April 1943, while, as per Remi, the date when this aircraft was lost was 10 Feb 1943.

If we want to 'prove' that this is one and the same incident, the date problem needs to be solved.

I also find it a bit tough to get the unit code 5J+xS (an 8.St aircraft as given by Remi) to fit in with a potential 5J+KF or 5J+FK code.

Cheers
Stig