New Shores, et al, book comments

[AndreasB]

I understand that there are separate questions regarding completeness of the narrative on the Italian side, but I wanted to weigh in on the sources issue.

I am one of those who are a bit disconcerted by this, since it makes it impossible to consider the weight of the evidence. For example, on the loss of a DC-2 on 8 December, the book brings up the issue of the loss also being recorded to have happened on 25 December, but then dismisses this by making the point about frontlines and avgas (or lack thereof). Which is pretty identical to the point I made here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ht=dc-2&page=2

When I made the point, it was pure speculation based on a look at the map and knowing the avgas situation from German records. Question for me is whether MAW is simply going through the same mental reasoning, or whether there is more evidence? Probably not, but it would be nice to know.

It's just a minor example, but I find the lack of a bibliography vexing.

Regardless of this, the book is of course a great improvement on FOTD. Even if it was simply for having the lists of losses, it would be well worth it.

All the best

Andreas

[Frank Olynyk]

In reply to Andrei Demjanko above, post #5 above, Giovanni has this to say:

First of all, there isn't any official list of Italian aerial victories.
Secondly, until late 1942 there wasn't in place any official procedure to determine even what an aerial victory was. So all was left to unit commanders which often used different criteria.

Today, unit diaries are the main source and, to compile the list of Italian aces, I checked all the fighter units' diaries. It has been a laborious and time-consuming process that took many years. But, unfortunately, it's not enough to copy the statements in unit diaries. As a matter of fact, many diaries are missing (all for year 1943 for instance), so you have to rely on other "official" sources: e.g. pilot logbooks, money prizes allowed to pilots for combat "kills" (since May 1943) and so on.

In various level diaries (Stormo, Gruppo, Squadriglia) you often find contradictions, so you have to exercise some judgement. I usually take the higher level version, assuming that some judgement had been already exercised by top commanders.

Nevertheless, the matter is far from being a "definitive" truth. It's just my best attempt.

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I hope this helps explain the situation.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[Andrei Demjanko]

Frank

Thank you and Giovanni so much for the most exhaustive and informative reply