Russian bomber losses over Budapest 19.09.44

[keith A]

A number of claims are made by flak and nightfighters but does anyone know how many bombers were lost/seriously damaged on this night, and which units suffered casualties?

regards

Keith

[HGabor]

Keith,

On the night of September 19/20, 1944 VVS DD, 2 GvAP DD lost 3 (4) IL-4s No.13, 21, 29 (S/N: 5303906, 5423917, 5423919), plus IL-4 No.6: lost an airman but returned damaged. 9. and 28. GvAP DD also lost 1-1 IL-4s, including S/N: 13518. 16 GvAP DD IL-4 No.13 returned with NJG damages.

Li-2s were also lost, but not linked to Budapest (they attacked Szatmárnémeti and/or dropped agents)

Gabor

[keith A]

Thanks Gabor

[researcher111]

Gabor

Unable to comment your remarks coze is out of my research area but as you know I have material.

Questions :

2 гап дд where were they operated from ( home airfield ) on Sept 44 and weren't
they equipped with B-25's since mid 1943 ?

28 гап дд were called from Aug 19,44 and further 29 гап дд and operated LI-2's some of which in bomber version , what was their home airfield on same date ? was not aware of IL-4's

16 гап дд what was their home airfield on same date ?

[HGabor]

Hi,

No, 2 GvAP DD flew IL-4s (DB-3Fs), not B-25s at least in Sept, 1944! Serials of losses are clearly of IL-4s from aircraft factory 39 (like: Batch no.542 - Zavod39 - Plane no.17 -----> 5423917, etc.), plus they were all lost with typical IL-4 crews of 4, not 5 or 6 airmen, like of the Mitchells. IL-4, S/N: 5423919 eg. crashed at Rzeszow, Poland en route home after attacking Budapest, so their home could be somewhere in Belarus by that time.)

28 GvAP DD flew IL-4s, 29 GvAP DD flew Li-2s. 339 AP DD also flew Li-2s, like S/N: 18411608, 336 AP DD flew Li-2s, eg. S/N: 18413302, etc.

Home of 16 GvAP DD (IL-4s) was probably in Ukraine.

Gabor

[researcher111]

• 18.08.42 - 26.12.44 (2 гап дд)
• 26.12.44 - 09.05.45 (2 гбап)

Check bellow regarding the B-25's На вооружении имел бомбардировщики Ил-4 (ДБ-3ф).
Полк сыграл исключительную роль в обороне Москвы.
Приказом Наркома обороны СССР No. 250 от 18.08.42 г. преобразован во 2 гап дд [3,10,11] (по данным [5] преобразован в 37 гбап).
13.05.43 г. Директивой НШ АДД No. 701833 из состава полка был развернут еще один полк: 16 гап дд.
В сентябре 1943 г. за отличия в боях за освобождение Смоленска полку присвоено почетное наименование Смоленский.
С августа 1943 г. полк перевооружен на бомбардировщики B-25.
Переименован Директивой Генерального штаба No. Орг/10/315706 от 26.12.44 г. во 2 гбап.

[HGabor]

Could be in 1943, however, later they could be re-equipped with IL-4s. IL-4 serials are given, all lost crews on Sept 19/20, 1944 also had 4 members only, not 5 or 6, like in the Mitchells. No question about them.

Eg.: М-88Б engine serials of lost bomber S/N: 5423917 were: 8811678, 8811684, tactical tail No.'21' (This was 1000 % an IL-4, NOT a soviet B-25 Mitchell!) The lost crew:

гв.л-т Крапивин Иван Фомич (+) pilot, 1 Гв. ав. корп. 2 Гв. Ав. П ДД
гв.мл.л-т Полтев Анатолий Петрович (+) navigator
гв.с-т Матвеев Михаил Иосифович (P.O.W.) radio-gunner
гв.с-т Рысев Николай Иванович (+) gunner

Budapest raid, plane crashed at Harkács - Gömörfalva, Hungary. Now: Gemerská Ves, Slovakia)

Gabor

[researcher111]

According crew list was IL-4 , however 2 GvAP DD also operated B-25's from 43
on . There is a famous shot of a B-25 which was ditched on an Hungarian hill guarded
by a Hungarian soldier sometimes on Aug 44 , initially thinking that this was belonging to the 26 AP ADD from Sevastopol though this may have been one of 2 GAP DD

[HGabor]

As I said, 2 GvAP DD operated IL-4s in Sept, 1944:
A nice drawing of IL-4 No.21, perhaps the very same plane: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/374/1/4#22
Not sure (and honestly: I don't really care) about any of their earlier B-25s.

26 AP DD(?) Mitchell in photo: I think it is wrong too, since that unit did not operate in the Hungarian area, it was (almost for sure) one of the lost 5 GvAD DD (14 & 22 GvAP DD, 337 AP DD) Mitchells, carrying supplies to the Yugoslav partisans flying across the Carpathians, Rumania, Hungary in the spring and summer of 1944. Many were lost due to German NJG attacks, flak and other mechanical troubles. Other candidate would be a 362 AP DD Mitchell (eg. B-25D, S/N: 43-3827) which also participated in raids against Hungarian cities, eg. Budapest, Debrecen in Sept, 1944. A 2nd GvAP DD Mitchell (if they had any left beside their IL-4s, - that I strongly doubt!!!!!!) would have flown back home towards Belarus, where all of the 2nd GvAP DD IL-4s turned after attacking Budapest. They wouldn't have been lost in Rumania or in -E, -SE direction from Hungary, an almost opposite direction!

Gabor

[HGabor]

...also, If you check the IL-4 serials lost during the Budapest attack, 542xxxx planes were late production (therefore brand new!!!) IL-4s, suggesting there was a major plane-replacement in 2 GvAP DD in 1944, when they probably left their old B-25s behind, switching for newer IL-4s. Who knows, perhaps when they went to Belarus???

Gabor