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Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union. |
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#1
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What's with USAAF losses?
Reading Shores and co's Mediterranean Air War, I've noticed that USAAF losses in the MTO in 1943 as presented in the USAAF Statistical Digest differ somewhat.
So I made a rough count for June, July and August '43 in MAW IV and found that there are some 35+ less losses of medium / light bombers and 120-130 less losses of fighters in MAW compared to the Statistical Digest. Any thoughts as to the differences between the sources? |
#2
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Re: What's with USAAF losses?
Possibilities
Systematic errors 1. The definition of a loss is not the same in both documents (e.g salvaged and Cat E after landing) 2. The digest includes a part or parts of the Med not covered by the MAW book 3. Their definitions of combat operations are different Random errors 4. (Heresy) MAW is not as comprehensive as we thought Without taking a month and going through each loss in turn to find the circumstances of those not in MAW and then coming up with a number you are not going to get an easy answer. Have to do the leg work to find out Martin |
#3
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Re: What's with USAAF losses?
I don't have yet MAW4, but in the MAW series my personal opinion is that the text is heavily focused on the fighters. In many occasions, a bomber loss will be listed in the loss summaries at the end of each day without being included in the narrative section.
I tried to compare your Statistical Digest with the losses reported for January 1943 in MAW3. Enemy aircraft: 11 losses according to Digest MAW3: 9 noted as shot down by enemy aircraft, two lost to enemy action without more detail, 8 destroyed on the ground by enemy aircraft. Not counting 3 duplicates. 3rd January: two A-20s of 47th BG (two in text, only one in losses summary) shot down by JG 53, 1 B-26 of 319th BG destroyed by a bombing attack at Biskra 4th January: two A-20s (41-3153 and 41-3155) of 47th BG shot down by JG 53 10th January: B-26 41-17197 of 17th BG shot down by JG 51 (but lost to Flak according to US reports) 11th January: two A-20s (41-3006 and 41-3175) of 47th BG destroyed on the ground at Thelepte by Luftwaffe attacks 12th January: A-20 41-3006 of 47th BG destroyed by bombs. Duplicate report, as serial reported lost the day before 13th January: A-20 41-3006 of unstated unit destroyed on the ground. Duplicate report, as serial reported lost both previous days .... 14th January: A-20 41-3153 of 47th BG shot down. Duplicate report, as serial reported lost on the 4th 15th January: B-26 41-17642 and 41-17872 of 17th BG shot down by JG 51 (one reported by engine failure in US losses), two A-20s of 47th BG (one 41-3148) destroyed at Thelepte by Lufwtaffe attacks 16th January: two A-20s (41-3171 and 41-3348) of unstated unit lost to enemy action 22nd January: B-26 41-17082 of 319th BG hit by Flak and fighters, crash-landed. Maybe repaired 28th January: B-25 41-13066 of 310th BG shot down by Mc202, three A-20s of 47th BG destroyed on the ground by Luftwaffe attacks Flak: 1 loss according to Digest MAW 3: 3 to 5 losses 1st January: B-26 41-17920 of 17th BG 22nd January: B-25 41-13046 of 310th BG shot down by ground fire, B-25 41-13044 also hit by ground fire, probably not lost 23rd January: B-26 41-17822 of 319th BG hit by Flak, crash-landed. Maybe repaired 29th January: B-26 41-17814 of 319th BG shot down by Flak Other cause: 1 loss according to Digest MAW 3: 3 losses 7th January: an A-20 of 68th OG failed to return from ASW patrol 14th January: B-26 41-17890 of 17th BG lost to engine trouble over Tunisia 29th January: A-20 of 47th BG crashed on take-off with full bomb load. Unclear losses in MAW 3: six cases 5th January: A-20 41-3152 of 47th BG, no reason given in summary, no description in text. Maybe not lost but only one crew killed 6th January: B-26 41-17771 of 319th BG collided with P-38 at Telergma. No description in text. Maybe not a total loss, or not operational 7th January: B-26 41-17894 of 17th BG lost, possibly by accident, in Algeria. Probably not operational 10th January: B-26 41-17876 of 17th BG force-landed. No description in text. Maybe not a total loss, or not operational 14th January: B-26 41-17963 of 320th BG lost in air collision over Algeria. Maybe not operational 18th January: A-20 41-3164 of 122nd OS crashed on take-off. Maybe not operational IMHO, US medium and light operations in North Africa as described in MAW3 are still a work "heavily in progress", ie an useful base for searching more, but certainly not the last word on the subject. |
#4
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Re: What's with USAAF losses?
Thanks guys
Giles, I agree with your points, though I am not aware of other major operations in the MTO in that period that might be covered in another volume. As MAW sources for USAAF losses are also American, the differences in this case seem quite striking. Laurent, I don't have MAW III, though I have read it. Interestingly, Table 103 in the Digest give total losses Combat & Accident for light and medium bombers as 34, which matches pretty well with your numbers; though it raises the question what those aircraft destroyed on the ground by bombs are regarded as: operational or non-operational? |
#5
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Re: What's with USAAF losses?
To be complete, I had forgotten that one medium bomber unit, the 12th BG, was in Eastern Mediterranean in January 1943. It is covered in MAW2 and lost two B-25 ditched while running out of gas on return from a raid on Crete on 2 January 1943. Both should be also counted in "Other causes" as operational losses.
Still the definition of operational losses could vary from one document to another and from one air force to another. Aircraft destroyed on the ground by enemy attacks were probably counted as non-operational, as they were not flying operations at the time. It is also interesting to see that in England, fighters and bombers of 8th and 9th Air Force that crashed on take-off or during the formation phase of a raid on Europe are usually covered by accident reports, while crashes on return of operations, even without any enemy action, are not covered according to my experience. You can also see the same kind of difference in the book "Bomber Command War Diaries": it describes all raids flown (except the minor ones, gathered together for each day/night) and gives for each the losses. These losses actually are only the losses suffered over Europe, bombers crashing in UK at the start or the return of the raid are not counted, except some especially bad nights where an added narrative will cover them. But for the other raids, you are missing 5-10% of the losses. |
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