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  #1  
Old 29th March 2016, 14:01
wise62 wise62 is offline
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B17 losses 2 march 1945

Hi,

12 USAAF b17 have been lost the 2 march 1945, 10 above Germany, Austria and Czecoslovakia macr 12812,12847,12851,12852,12853,12855,12856,12857,12 858,12859
2 into the Channel (macr 12846 - 12848).

The same day, around 15h00 am (french time) a b17 exploded over the village of St Inglevert (Northern France - between Calais and Marquise - along the coast). One of its engine felt on a house, killing a young woman.
This engine has just been unearthed this year and is a Wright cyclone, a little part is marked Boeing.
From an old witness, an airman may have been have found, unopened chute, dead.

However not one of the above has been found in this french area.

Is there another possible B17 bomber?

Thanks for help

Wise62

not one of the planes above corresponds to this event
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Old 29th March 2016, 17:52
Revi16 Revi16 is online now
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

These two B-17's are listed as a mid-air collision over the North Sea? Perhaps?

There won't be a MARC due to the crash taking place over friendly territory.


http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s...2=Go&offset=75
450302 B-17G 44-8697 413BS 96BG 138 8 KMAC 4 Stilwell, Herbert H NSE
450302 B-17G 43-37767 339BS 96BG 138 8 KMAC 4 Gatch, Benton R Jr NSE
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Old 29th March 2016, 18:30
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

Revi16, there are MACRs for this collision, there are also accident reports. The collision occurred at 0820.

MACR 12846 is for 44-8697 and MACR 12848 is for 43-37767.
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Old 29th March 2016, 18:47
Horst Weber Horst Weber is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by wise62 View Post
Hi,

12 USAAF b17 have been lost the 2 march 1945, 10 above Germany, Austria and Czecoslovakia macr 12812,12847,12851,12852,12853,12855,12856,12857,12 858,12859
2 into the Channel (macr 12846 - 12848).

The same day, around 15h00 am (french time) a b17 exploded over the village of St Inglevert (Northern France - between Calais and Marquise - along the coast). One of its engine felt on a house, killing a young woman.
This engine has just been unearthed this year and is a Wright cyclone, a little part is marked Boeing.
From an old witness, an airman may have been have found, unopened chute, dead.

However not one of the above has been found in this french area.

Is there another possible B17 bomber?

Thanks for help

Wise62

not one of the planes above corresponds to this event
Good evening wise62

This day, 1st AD attacked on it's mission oil-targets in East-Germany refinery-areas and had an extraordinary amount of losses class FTR LOC (Failed to return, loss ocured behind friendly lines). This means, that the aircraft didn't make it to it's home base, but somewhere in allied territory, between the German hold territory and the home base it landed, in which condition ever.

Under these circumstances, no MACR was compiled, since the USAAF received quickly information, what happened to the crew and the aircraft.

This 2nd March 1945, 1st Air Division had 15 incidents like that. Close candidates for your accident are:

- 92nd BG, 327th BS, B-17G-95-BO s/n 43-38853, salvaged 17 March 45
- 351st BG, 509th BS, B-17G-80-BO s/n 43-38116, on March 3rd to
2nd Strategic Air Depot, salvaged March 4th 1945.
- 398th BG, 603rd BS, B-17G-45-BO s/n 42-97313, salvaged 14 April 45

This incidents could match up with your description of the reports for that day. All other B-17 FTR-LOC incidents that day are not really matching up, since the particular unit regained in March or April 1945 their a/c, which went FTR-LOC that 2nd March 1945.


Hope this helps

Best wishes !

Horst Weber
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Old 29th March 2016, 18:52
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

Wise62,

MACRs contain the aircraft engine serial number(s). Whether anyone has indexed these I do not know. But if you can locate the serial number on the recovered Wright Cyclone engine, someone may be able to find the corresponding MACR. Assuming there is such a MACR.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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Old 29th March 2016, 20:35
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

wise62,
One question that always comes up in these types of investigations is.... how certain are you of the date? Are there written records from that time that give that date? If March 2nd is the date the woman died, is it possible she was injured prior to her death?

It has been my experience (having done several of these kinds of investigations) that a "remembered" date is quite often wrong.
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Old 30th March 2016, 01:05
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FrankieS FrankieS is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

B-17 42-37818 "Pub Pete/Dina Might" of BG390 BS568 crashed on 21.01.1944
at Hervelinghen which is near to St. Inglevert.

bye,
FrankieS
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Old 30th March 2016, 02:30
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

FrankieS, another interesting fact about the plane you found, 42-37818 is that the time last seen is given as 1500. The MACR 2270 does have the engine serial numbers, should it come to that.

Also, the right waist gunner's chute failed to open and he was found dead on the ground. He was buried in Marquise.
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Old 30th March 2016, 10:39
vathra vathra is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horst Weber View Post
This day, 1st AD attacked on it's mission oil-targets in East-Germany refinery-areas and had an extraordinary amount of losses class FTR LOC (Failed to return, loss ocured behind friendly lines). This means, that the aircraft didn't make it to it's home base, but somewhere in allied territory, between the German hold territory and the home base it landed, in which condition ever.

Under these circumstances, no MACR was compiled, since the USAAF received quickly information, what happened to the crew and the aircraft.
Horst,

one question regarding losses where no MACR was made.
I have found some 30 cases of B-17 and B-24 that fell in Yugoslavia, and MACR was not made since all crew was quickly evacuated through allied missions. Since it was behind enemy lines, Escapa statements was made.

In that case, was there any document made that contains serial numbers of engine, MG and plane?
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Old 30th March 2016, 14:05
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945

I have not seen exact "rules" for whether or not a MACR needed to be filed.
There are many cases when a plane "landed" or even essentially "crash landed" in allied territory on the continent (i.e. it did no return to England) and no MACR was filed. I "think" in all those cases no crew were killed or at least none were "missing". Also, if the plane actually returned to base with dead aboard typically no MACR was filed.

If the plane returned but some crew members had bailed out and their whereabouts were unknown (there are cases like that), then a MACR was filed.

It may be that the key concept is whether or not crew members were actually "missing", e.g. in the North Sea in the case of the collision discussed above, behind enemy lines or even possibly in allied territory but not immediately known to be under allied "control"
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