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  #1  
Old 19th March 2017, 11:20
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Hello

End of 1944,near Kemi (Finland),Werner Gayko (9/JG5) shot down a Swedisch aircraft ( pilot wounded) which led to a serious diplomatic incident.

1)Are there other cases?
2)Could anyone clarify this "incident"

Thank you in advance

michel
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Old 19th March 2017, 15:54
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Never heard of that

Neither has Mombeek since he does not list such a claim by Gayko in his JG 5 book vol 4. End of 1944 indicates December to me, is that correct? Since a few months back Germany was also at war with Finland and in December there were no German troops left in the Kemi area. They were far more north, backing out of Finland into Norway. The nearest airfield at Rovaniemi was also in Finnish hands. A German aircraft then had to come from either Petsamo/Kirkenes area and I can't really see a Bf 109 going all that way and back again.

At that time the combined USAAF/Swedish operation Sonnie had just began in the northern part of Sweden. However in December they did not yet involve any Swedish aircraft, only USAAF ones. Even if Kemi is very close to Sweden, I can still see no reason for a Swedish aircraft to fly across the border.

Can you elaborate? Exact date would be useful, not to mention your source.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 19th March 2017, 18:33
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

According to Girbing,the facts would have occured shortly (without specifying dates) before the attack on the Tirpiz on 12/11/44.

That day,always according to him,Ehrler and Gayko would have stopped their attacks against two Lancasters who then penetrated Swedisch Territory,in order not to trigger a diplomatic incident such as that occasioned by the "victory" of Gayko previously.

My questions:
1)Was there at that time a Swedisch plane shot down in the region of Kemictober?november?
(what type.....etc.)
2)Have there been any others cases of such misidentification?

Certainly the "victory" was never officially recorder (we understand why)

michel
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Old 19th March 2017, 22:57
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Well Michel

The only non-Soviet claims I can see JG 5 making in the area is for Finnish operated Ju 88. Nothing Swedish at all.

Second problem, there is no Swedish loss that I am aware of.

At this stage (October-November) the Germans are basically doing a tactical withdrawal. I doubt the frontline was anywhere near Kemi at that time.

No, this sounds very, very fuzzy and I doubt anything like this ever happened.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 19th March 2017, 23:39
gaupe75 gaupe75 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Wasn't this a english plane shot down over Sweden?

Luftwaffe also shot down other planes over Sweden, reference: http://www.forcedlandingcollection.se/
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:33
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Hi Gaupe

I have no idea, but the suggestion it all may have to do with a Brittish aircraft is of course possible, since Gayko after all claimed one, but that was in January 1945. Two Lancasters came down in Sweden connected to the Tirpitz raids, but only one fits the bill, since the other came down the same day she was sunk.

However we then have to completely leave out all clues provided by Michel (aka Girbig)
a) Kemi area (no British loss comes close)
b) Swedish aircraft (quite obvious why that would not fit)
c) Never officially recorded, diplomatic scandal (also quite obvious why that wouldn't fit)
d) Pilot wounded (probably the only thing which fits, since F/O Carey did hurt his knee in the forced landing on 29.10.1944 when NF920 came down. But JG 5 did not claim any Lancaster that day and its loss is attributed to AA-fire)

So I would say we can rule out a British aircraft unless Girbig's statement is completely garbled.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 20th March 2017, 13:42
gaupe75 gaupe75 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

I can't find this reference to Gaykos encounter over Sweden, I will keep searching. But I'm pretty sure this was during the earlier bombings of the Tirpitz.
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Old 20th March 2017, 15:39
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Please do try Gaupe

I no longer have Girbig's book since getting the Mombeek volumes, I gave that one away. I no longer have space for all books once owned....

But if we are talking about a British aircraft of whatever type, then Girbig's statement either is misunderstood or very garbled.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:03
gaupe75 gaupe75 is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

This is what Girbig says, page 173, the 2012 print:

"Recently, near Kemi in Finland, Gayko's wingman had shot down a Swedish aircraft that had tried to attack him. This resulted in a great deal of anger and diplomatic entanglements and explains why the pilots tried at all costs to avoid infringing upon Swedish airspace by the British bombers must be seen as much more serious."
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Old 21st March 2017, 13:56
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: Luftwaffe vs Swedisch

Thanks Gaupe

This changes a bit the original request.
However checking (again) Mombeek there is no claim which could correspond, even if I don't know who this wingman was.

Even worse I am unable to locate anything on the Swedish side which should correspond to this claim. No diplomatic crises either. As per many years ago anything like this would have been declassified, probably not even classified at all in the first place.

No idea from where Girbig has got this information.

Cheers
Stig
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