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  #1  
Old 28th January 2018, 20:39
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Who shot down the 3 P-47 lost that day( in the region of Ostend) by the 4th Fighter Group (334th Squadron).

Thanks in advance

Michel
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  #2  
Old 28th January 2018, 21:21
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hi Michel,

the P-47 D-1-RE 42-7920 was shot down by Uffz Johannes Rathenow, 2./JG 1 at 1400 hrs 10 km west of Blankenberghe.
Two more P-47 of the 4th FG collided on the occasion of chasing some Fw 190.

Source: JFV Vol. 10/I page 113, 10/II page 84 and 10/IV page 154.

Regards
Leo
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Old 29th January 2018, 22:19
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hi Leo

According to microfilm,the Obfw.Hoffmann (11/JG54) claimed a P-47 10 km W.Blankenberge,corresponding to the losses of 4°FG.

Always according to microfilm,Uffz.Rathenow claimed a B-17 and not a P-47.

I don't know what is based JFV series!

The is an obvious contradiction.The other 2 P-47 "would have been victims of III/JG26" but microfilm absent....so anyone say more?

Michel
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  #4  
Old 30th January 2018, 11:00
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hello, Michel

When you say according to the microfilm, have you them or do you use Tony Wood's file built from the microfilms ?

To have worked with Mr Wood at the time, I know that some files were hardly readable and Mr Wood had to guess what was written.

It will be great if Mr Prien can comment on this case, but my humble opinion is that the JFV series is more accurate than Mr Wood's files.
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  #5  
Old 30th January 2018, 11:32
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Michel

Yes this is one of those claims where authors have chosen to differ.
According to Jochen Prien I./JG 1 flew one extra mission that afternoon and Rathenow then claimed one P-47 as stated by Leo. He indicates nothing for 11./JG 54. It is also worth noting that this information differ from his previous books about JG 1 and JG 11.

All other sources I have say the claim was made by Ofw Hoffmann from 11./JG 54. For example Johannes Mathews says Rathenow only made 4 claims (Prien says 5) and there is a Hoffmann with JG 54 and 1 claim which may fit the one below. It seems no given name is known at this point.

No idea why Jochen Prien and his colleagues have chosen to differ in their later work. Both he and Gerhard Stemmer are onboard TOCH so they can answer, if they want to.

The readabillity of the microfilms are well known, as Laurent says, and Johannes is probably as good a champion reading them as anyone else who have tried.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 30th January 2018, 11:56
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

In the Osprey book on JG 54, it is said that on 21 May 1943 Ofw Reinheld (sic) Hoffmann scored the only victory of 11./JG 54.

So we have a complete name here, but AFAIK could be Reinhold rather than Reinheld.

There was a Reinhold Hoffmann in JG 54, but he scored kills with 5./JG 54 on the Eastern Front in March and May 1943 (on the 30th). I will be surprised if he flew with 11./JG 54 over Belgium on 21 May 1943.

So... well I think this full name is as reliable as most Osprey books
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Old 30th January 2018, 13:15
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Well Laurent

Johannes has no Reinheld Hoffmann in his list.

The far more well known Reinhold Hoffmann with 5./JG 54 was nowhere near the western front.

Checking the name Reinheld, google suggests it is a female name, but perhaps a mistake for Reinhild? Again trying to find anyone in Germany named Reinheld Hoffmann proved impossible, but I did not try very hard, to be honest....

Anyone else who has an opinion?

Cheers
Stig
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Old 30th January 2018, 13:52
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hi Laurent,Stig

I admit that I "lose my Latin",if I may say!

To "add a stone to the buiding",according to Caldwell,the 3 P-47 "would have victims of III/JG26!!

I also trust in Prien and his team,but I don't understand the (sometimes huge) differences between the facts narrated in his previous publications(JG1/JG11),without forgetting JG53/JG77,and more recent series:....in a few years,everything will be questioned again?

Well,I enter in my Database yours corrections.

Thank you again

Best Regards
Michel
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  #9  
Old 30th January 2018, 15:19
ClinA-78 ClinA-78 is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Well, from memory, wasn't a staffel (or more) exchange between JG 54 and JG 26 from front to front mid-'43 ?

ClinA-78
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  #10  
Old 30th January 2018, 15:51
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Well Michel

I have nothing against Caldwell, except perhaps his rather "blind faith" in JG 26

As far as I can see he is the only one to find these three P-47s and assign them to JG 26.

From US sources we can be fairly certain 4FG mission was to patrol the Ostend-Ghent sector. The fight they got into was in the Bruges area, which fits their mission profile. However we also have to remember that a combat patrol like this took place quite high up and the exact path taken is always tricky to compute, especially since all three squadrons were involved.

4FG reported that two pilots were missing after chasing enemy aircraft roughly over Ghent and going eastward, ie towards Brussels rather than the coast, while the third pilot, William Morgan, went down into the North Sea off Ostend. This indicates if nothing else that the 4FG split up and chased/were themselves chased by various German units. Blankenberge is along the coast north east of Ostend and the claim vs the loss fits extremely well.

At this time III./JG 26 were based in northern France while I./JG 1 was based in Holland. Both units had Belgium within easy reach so it is not impossible both units actually were involved. Since 11./JG 26 was known as 11./JG 54 at this time it is also clear why we have that unit listed.

I wonder from where the details origin that two P-47s collided? They are not listed as such in the 4FG books I have. Sounds like an afterthought where someone in USA could not find any German claims so ergo collision must be the answer....

At this stage it seems impossible to find out the exact truth of claims vs losses and as far as I go, I am OK with that. I can accept not all riddles are solvable, but it would be interesting to know why JFV has switched the name from Hoffmann to Rathenow...

Cheers
Stig
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