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  #21  
Old 1st February 2018, 19:51
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

A lot of interesting replies which basically confirm what we already know about the three USAAF losses that day.

However it does not get us much further with regard how these losses occured.

Beside Caldwell, who assigned all three losses to JG 26, we have still not got any closer than before.

Yes an Ofw Hoffmann 11./JG 54 (11./JG 26 was known as 11./JG 54 on the date in question) seems to be named in the microfilms. If he is the same individual as Ofw Hermann Hoffmann, at least Caldwell did not make the connection, or maybe he simply chose to leave out all claims made by 11./JG 54? Neither has Johannes Mathews made any connection with Hermann Hoffmann

Even worse, we still don't know why Prien and Friends exchanged Hoffmann against Rathenow.

Unfortunately none of our German friends has chosen to comment the topic.
I will send Johannes an e-mail and ask if he can look into this in more depth from the German side.

Cheers
Stig
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  #22  
Old 4th February 2018, 13:12
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

All

Johannes has kindly answered me and advice that the microfilms clearly states a Hoffmann (no given name) from 11./JG 54 was making a claim vs a Thunderbolt on this day.

This is the only claimed Thunderbolt and it is, at least not at the present, possible to identify any further claims. Rathenow is only listed as making a claim for a B-17 earlier during the day.

Which Hoffmann it was can only be a matter of speculation, so I leave that out of the equation and unless someone has a FB to prove his point, it will probably remain a speculation only.

Why and from where Team Prien has received details which made them change Hoffmann into Rathenow is unknown by Johannes, and unless one from the team clearly state why and what sources have been used, at least I will continue with Hoffmann for that claim. The microfilms are not Gospel and we all know Johannes has found several discrepancies, so Hoffmann may after all be wrong, but if so we need proof and not just statements.

Neither is it possible to verify Caldwell's claim that all three Thunderbolts were shot down by JG 26. Did two of them collide? That is also possible, but so far there is no proof of that either.

Cheers
Stig
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  #23  
Old 5th February 2018, 20:06
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hello Stig,

according to the JFV volumes Fw/Ofw Hermann Hoffmann from 4./JG 26 had seven confirmed victories. The first on 18 May 1940, the last on 29 April 1942.

Damage:
6 December 1941 4./JG 26 Ofw Hermann Hoffmann verletzt Übungseinsatz, Bruchlandung Coxijde.
Fw 190 A-1 0050 70% weiße 2

Killed in action:
17 August 1943 11./JG 26 Ofw Hermann Hoffmann +
Absturz bei Pulibert, 10 km westlich Fruges, Aufschlagbrand 12.05 Uhr, 100%
Bf 109 G-6 20225 rote 7


JFV Vol. 10/IV to the events on 21 May 1943:

No victories and losses of III./JG 26 and 11./JG 54 (pages 577/579, 594/595).
The 11./JG 26 was renamed 11./JG 54 in the period from 17 February to 1 July 1943.

Footnote 514 on page 154:
„Caldwell, aaO, S.61/62, bringt drei P-47 Verluste der 4th FG in Verbindung mit dem Einsatz der III./JG 26, doch traten diese tatsächlich im Luftkampf mit der I./JG 1 ein – vgl. oben Teil 10/I, S. 111“

Obviously the research team has found out, that the P-47 was not shot down by Ofw Hoffmann.

You are right, a comment of the JFV researcher team would be helpful.

Regards
Leo
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  #24  
Old 5th February 2018, 21:46
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 4th Fighter Group on 21/5/43

Hi Leo

Well, since the microfilms clearly state a Hoffmann (no given name, which means no Hermann is named) from 11./JG 54 as making a claim against a Thunderbolt that day, it would have been very nice of the JFV team to add a footnote why they suddenly discard that information and what evidence they have that Rathenow all of a sudden made that claim.

There is otherwise no lack of footnotes in their books

Cheers
Stig
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