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  #21  
Old 26th January 2009, 00:01
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

What means close escort? Right into the end of bigger daylight bomber attacks 110s tended to form their Spanish Rings, IMHO not a close escort tactic but trying to control a certain air space and producing a threat to RAF fighters planning to attack bombers, maybe tied at least part of the defending fighters to watch the threat and also making it possible to make diving attacks on fighters which ignored 110s and tried to attack bombers. The question was how eagerly 110s left the ring for an attack and IMHO that varied, sometimes FC pilots thought that 110s were reluctant to leave the relative safety of the ring, sometimes 110s gave adequate protection to bombers.

On LW air gunners generally
In the Richard Hough’s and Denis Richards’ The Battle of Britain. Coronet edition 1990 ISBN 0 340 53470 2. Exact location p. 156 note**, the study was based on opinions given in 1988 by some 100 surviving BoB pilots. 40 rated the quality of German bomber gunnery good or excellent, 32 thought it average and 30 poor. In text on that page is a short note of a combat where gunners of a tight formation of Dorniers shot down two British fighters and in the note is mentioned a combat in which 9 He 111s shot down three out of the first six attacking Hurricanes.

In both cases bombers kept their formations and in the later case, if I identified the right combat years ago, the first Hurricane attack was poorly planned and attacking fighters were caught by effective cross fire.

IMHO I doubt that the 110 pilots held their WO/AGs in low regard, after all they were a team and a team needed respect between its members to work effectively. Both pilots and WO/AGs might have low opinion on the effectiveness of lone MG 15 against 8 gun fighters but that is a different thing.

Juha
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  #22  
Old 26th January 2009, 03:31
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Juha, are you comparing the gunnery of bombers flying straight and level to the gunnery of maneuvering Bf110s?
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  #23  
Old 26th January 2009, 12:26
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Hello Kutscha
no, I gave only a piece of info how a group of FC veterans rated LW air gunners 48 years after BoB. Only as an indicator of the level of LW air gunner training. I also commented that defensive fire was most effective when fighters used careless tactics while attacking a formation. And I have wrote earlier on problems which hindered gunner using free mounted gun while his a/c manoeuvred hard.

Juha
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  #24  
Old 26th January 2009, 15:10
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

I'm a bit late to the party on this thread, still 101 things to be done following a recent change of address.

I'd like to touch on the defence circle (or the 'attack' circle as some crews disparagingly called it). A couple of examples:
1. The Croydon raid of 15th August 1940 involving the Bf 110s of Stab, 1. & 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Going in to attack the airfield, RAF fighters were already seen. The simple tactic,therefore, upon releasing their bombs was to climb and form a defensive circle(s), which was done. None were shot down while in the circle. What had to happen next was on a command, those aircraft in each circle would break for home as an entity. Wolfgang Schenck (and I hate quoting this guy on a regular basis, but he had so much information and knowledge that it would have been foolish to ignore it) told me that when he rejoined his Staffel (1./Erpr. Gr 210, the old 1./ZG 1) on 4th September 1940, he had chatted with Martin Lutz about the loss of Rubensdörffer on this raid. Lutz told him that 'Rubs' had got the break from his 'Stab' circle all wrong, resulting in Rubs (CO), Fiedler (Adjutant) and Koch (TO) being shot down, and Willi Benedens (who was attached as supernumerary to the Stabsschwarm) getting back to Calais-Marck in a badly damaged Bf 110. For the other two circles, 1. Staffel lost one Bf 110 (Beudel) and 2. Staffel lost two Bf 110s (Ortner and Habisch), with recent evidence pointing to the likelihood that Habisch's Bordfunker, Elfner, inadvertently shot through the rear controls of his aircraft in trying to fend off RAF fighters, thereby shooting his own aircraft down. SO, for the two Staffeln who got the break from the circle correct, losing one aircraft each to 18 RAF fighters (9 each from 32 and 111 Sqdns.) seems to be pretty good damage limitation. And yes, I know you must factor in the Stab losses overall, I'm just pointing out what the situation was with a well executed circle and break for home.
2. The defensive circle set in place on 27th September by ZG 26 when Erprobungsgruppe 210 set out to attack the Parnall factory at Yate near Bristol. ZG 26 set up a holding circle near the coast to await the return of 210 from the target. Now I don't know how good Luftwaffe Intelligence was with regard to the placement and movement of RAF Squadrons, but 504 Sqdn moved to Filton OVERNIGHT and were in place wonderfully to head-off 210 as they approached their target. Perhaps Luftwaffe Intelligence believed there would be no RAF squadrons in the vicinity of the target, and so believed 210 could have a free run in on it, while ZG 26 waited near the coast where it was believed the real intervention would take place. Hence the ZG 26 position and holding circle, in place to protect and ferry the bombing 110s back across the Channel, and mix it with any RAF squadrons that rose to intercept. We know that 504 intercepted 210 in the Bristol area, which was probably not part of the Luftwaffe plan, and more RAF squadrons intercepted around the coastal area and further inland, with consequent losses to the 110 units.
The above are just two examples of how the circle was used in the 'so-called' Battle of Britain (mustn't offend some people who say it never took place...!!!)

Another point I would like to quickly touch upon which has been mentioned in this thread, is the deployment of the Bf 110 fighter force. From the many interviews Peter Cornwell and I (and I'm sure Chris Goss also from his own research) did with Bf 110 crews, all those in the pure fighter units said that their role was close escort to bombers (immer, immer Begleitschutz). When you then consider the speed of bombers, and a fighter being tied to close escort to them, you can then see the huge disadvantage they were at when attacked by RAF fighters who might only be flying at just above two-thirds of their maximum speed. In other words, a Spit or Hurricane flying at 250-280 mph going after a 110 at about 200 mph. That is one hell of a disparity in air speed, and ability to avoid a sudden attack. That then lends some credence to the view that they were deployed incorrectly, and is supported by the famous request from a famous 109 pilot who asked to be allowed to have his unit roam free to hunt down the enemy and not be tied as any kind of escort to bombers. The decision to tie the Bf 110s to close bomber escort was a death warrant for many young Bf 110 crews as a result. One 110 pilot told me also that too many pilots respected the advice they received, of not pushing their engines to the limit. His attitude was that once in combat or heading for home he would push both engines to the max, and didn't give a toss about the life of an engine - his primary concern was to get back to base and leave it to the mechanics to decide if he'd buggered an engine on his 110 and it needed replacement.

I hope the foregoing is of some use in the ongoing discussion in this thread.
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Last edited by John Vasco; 26th January 2009 at 18:17.
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  #25  
Old 26th January 2009, 16:34
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Hello John
thanks for the comments
What I was thinking were the Filton raid by KG 55 and the failed Yeovil raid when Ju 88s bombed Sherborne in error, IIRC during Filton raid FC pilots thought that 110s were too passive but 110s gave reasonable protection to Ju 88s during the failed Yeovil raid.

Juha
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  #26  
Old 26th January 2009, 17:35
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Thank you John! Much appreciated
Goran
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  #27  
Old 27th January 2009, 00:51
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Wonderful input John, many thanks. Given the number of 110 vets you have spoken too, did any offer their own thoughts on how best the 110 could have been utilised in the battle Of Britain?

P.S. I do wish you would consider gettng back into writing and do another on the Me110.
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  #28  
Old 27th January 2009, 01:23
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

As usual, this board is a wealth great of info.

Anyone recognize my nick?
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  #29  
Old 27th January 2009, 01:48
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Jim,
Hardly any offered their thoughts on the actual best use of the 110. At the time they were young men, flying modern aircraft, drawn into a war, and just got into it. the odd one did give some additional views. Marchfelder said he flatly refused to go to a fighter-bomber unit, ashe was quite happy to fight in air-to-air combat, but not randomly drop bombs that would kill civilians. Schenck, who I mention from time to time, was a different kind of person altogether. He had served time at Rechlin, and got an insight into what was going on there in terms of all the experimental trials. He was what one would term a 'thinker', and so in all of my discussions with him (and there were several long ones) it was obvious that there was more to him than the usual pilot (that's not to denigrate pilots in any way - Schenck did head up 'Kommando Schenck' in 1944 trialling the 262 as a bomber, and become Inspector of Jet Fighters, so he must have had something going for him in terms of knowledge and ability). He felt the 110 could have acquitted itself better in the BoB had the pilots been allowed to fly it to its full capabilities. In other words, once across the English coast flying at full tilt, 'through the gate', to get on and stuck into the RAF fighters on favourable terms rather than at a disadvantage, as was most times the case.

As to some losses, well Hübner & Franke of 5./ZG 6 were given a reserve machine of 6./ZG 26 to fy one day, and once in the air they knew why it was a reserve. Clapped out. Easy meat for shooting down. And Wilhelm Schaefer of the Geschwaderstab of ZG 2, who had not flown since being fished out of the Channel on 11th August, was given his Geschwaderkommodore's Bf 110 to fly on 4th September. Very generous gesture by Vollbracht, until he and his Bordfunker were airborne and Schaefer realised both engines were knackered. Duty meant he stayed with his unit in the air, but once the RAF was encountered and the fighting began, his 110 was a disaster waiting to happen, and the best thing that happened was after taking many hits he was able to put down safely for both to become PoWs. So a couple of examples of why some losses occurred. I'm sure that is representative across all of the flying services of the nations involved at the time.

And there will be no more 110 writings from me. I have exhausted all of my research material. Everything I had is now in the books. Get the books and you have as much as I have ever had. The only writing I have left to do is to complete the story of my lunatic time with the early 1970s rock band I was in in Liverpool, and then parcel up two copies for my grandchildren for when they are old enough to read it.
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  #30  
Old 27th January 2009, 01:49
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Re: Me110: Ill-used in BoB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutscha View Post
As usual, this board is a wealth great of info.

Anyone recognize my nick?
Recognise it, I met the guy!
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