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Old 10th May 2019, 20:54
rof120 rof120 is offline
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Galland's victories: Reply to Laurent Rizzotti - About translations, in particular of aviation books

QUOTE:
2nd May 2019, 18:55
Laurent Rizzotti

Re: A Galland mystery – Galland’s two victories won on 3 June 1940
________________________________________
(…)

On a side note, I am not sure that speaking of translation of Galland's books as "separate sources" is valid: in most cases, the translator only translates, there is no new research or update done.

I know you mean well but alas what you wrote on translations does not match reality. It would, and this would be very fine indeed, “if” translators really “only (would) translate”, but in almost all instances regrettably this is not the case. For whatever reasons (I can’t elaborate on the causes here for this would take a lot of time and space) so-called “translators”, male and female, almost always write whatever nonsense they happen to stumble on or have in their otherwise empty brains. Of course such people are not translators but bloody incompetent amateurs. Most firms and almost all publishing companies hire them because they accept much lower fares than competent professionals. So almost all translations of any kind talk nonsense. The only excuses are the mostly incredibly low fares for translating (lower than for cleaning the floor, as the French translators’ union used to say) and very short time allowed for doing the job. Also, many “translators” feel they have to “improve” and even “correct” what the author has written. They are so much better than the authors!

This is how the English edition (1954) of Galland’s book “The First and the Last” contains a lot of nonsense. Not only was a large part of the chapters dealing with the Spanish civil war deleted – and quite a few English-readers complained about that – but, among many other horrors, you can read this in the English edition (first published 1955 in England by Eyre Methuen Ltd., London; my copy printed 1986 in the USA by Champlin Museum Press in Mesa, Arizona):

on page 45 about Galland’s very first victory on May 12, 1940 (a RAF “Hurricane) “He rather clumsily avoided action…”. In German it was: “He took evasive action which was not particularly skilful…” The poor guy did NOT “avoid action” but took evasive action, which is entirely different. But the rest is much worse:

page 47 – Galland describes how he chased a French Potez 63.11 and adds: “Der Heckschütze war ausgefallen.” (The rear gunner had been put out of action.) English “translation” : “I had (…) shot away part of his tail.” So the rear gunner became part of the tail. Very interesting.

page 47 too: “I pulled at my brakes like mad.” “Pulled”?
page 50: “I bent a blade of my airscrew and my undercarriage on his wing.” In German it was: “I bent (…) and my fin on his right wing” (RIGHT wing and FIN not undercarriage). Replacing the fin with the undercarriage really is a great feat.
page 52 (bottom of page): “On August 1st, when Marshal Kesselring pinned the Knight’s Cross on my tunic after my seventeenth kill (…)”. A Knight’s Cross pinned on the tunic, no comment.

Do you prefer the old French edition “Jusqu’au bout sur nos Messerschmitt” (publisher was Robert Laffont 1954)? Virtually everything is wrong or invented by the so-called “translator”. It’s almost necessary to correct every single word so I can give you but a few examples:

Page 8, 2nd line: Westerholt became “Westerholz”. He couldn’t care less. Same nonsense on page 9, 2nd paragr., 1st line.
Page 12, end of 1st paragr. : “ a small car” has become “an Opel”.
End of page 17: one hour in custody became “three hours”.
Page 59, end of 1st paragr.: “a small (private) tourism aircraft” was in fact a Fw 58 “Weihe” – a light, twin-engined aircraft. It was shot down by German fighters with a German general (Jafü) inside. The “translation” of the rest of this story is appalling: I am not brave enough to discuss it here. Pure inventions, nonsense etc. like in the WHOLE BOOK.

In this French “translation”, the fin of Galland’s Me 109 was not damaged any more on June 3, 1940.

Of course, like everybody else including those who made the film “The Battle of Britain” (and Galland was one of the experts having helped with this work), this “translator” wrote that Galland asked Göring for an “escadrille” (or “Staffel” (12 fighters), or “squadron”) of “Spitfires”. As he reported 1953 at the latest in his own book, Galland asked for “Spitfires” for his Geschwader (wing, escadre), which means a complement of 124 fighters not 12 or 16 (in the RAF, or later 20).

Sorry, I have to hurry up. I’ll just add that Galland described in great detail, in this same book, how he was shot down on 21 June 1941 and very nearly died in his burning and diving 109. He can’t jettison the damaged transparent roof of his cockpit, which becomes a jammed “ejection seat” and his parachute becomes “my second parachute”, as if any fighter pilot in the world had been carrying TWO parachutes!

At the very end of the book we learn highly interesting things: the airport of Munich-Riem becomes “Riehm” twice because the “translator” didn’t like the real name, and this place (which was part of Munich) is to be found “in the suburbs of Salzburg”, which is approximately 100 km (60 miles) to the East. Big suburbs I have to say. This “translation” does not mention with one single word that Galland was wounded in a knee on 26 April, which made him unable to fly and made his capture by American troops possible. So we believe that he was on Salzburg airfield when the 60 Me 262s of his beloved JV 44 were blown up by their German owners (a certain concentration of the jet fighters had taken place in the last few days). To replace himself he had chosen Heinz Bär (say “Bair”) as the new CO of this unit. Galland was not there – he was still in hospital, certainly much to his chagrin.

Terrible translations are to be found everywhere, not only in aviation literature. The most interesting German book of Mr. Karl-Heinz Frieser on the 1940 French Campaign with the title “Blitzkrieg-Legende - Der Westfeldzug 1940” (released 1995, 4th edition in the meantime) was massacred by some female nitwit who did not even know that tanks have turrets not towers and that big guns do not fire "coups de feu" (shots from light weapons like rifles). This "translation" is incredibly poor and misleading (poor historians!). Some people disagree with Frieser but this is not the point. I read both the German and the French editions. The French one is absolutely terrible: artillery pieces and antitank guns fire “shots” (coups de feu, in French shots by small arms), a heavy French tank B1bis (the by far heaviest tank in Europe except the USSR) becomes “un char minuscule” (minute, tiny like a sparrow is “minuscule” as compared with an eagle). Tanks have a “tour” (tower) instead of a “tourelle” (turret). The 41,000 (or possibly 43,000) wheeled vehicles of “grouping Kleist” engaged in the decisive battle of Sedan (May 12-14, 1940) become 41,000 cycles (like bicycles and the like). This so-called “translation” is a masterpiece and very typical.

Buyer, reader, beware! Translated books are a permanent fraud. Check first.
Galland and his German publishers were infuriated and very bitter when they read the so-called French “translation” of "Les premiers et les derniers" (1954) with the changed title of “Jusqu’au bout sur nos Messerschmitt” – a mouthful – and probably all the other “translations” or most of them; as we just saw the English “translation” is hardly better. This made them very suspicious and very careful about more recent translations, which were checked very carefully and had to be accepted before being printed and sold. (This procedure is applied very rarely, which is a great pity.)

Galland, in particular, scrutinized translations very carefully – possibly with the help of numerous German fighter pilots who had survived the war. He was extremely satisfied with "Les premiers et les derniers" (1985-1992) and he wrote this to his new French translator-publisher in no uncertain terms.
This is why I counted 5 different books not 3 containing Galland’s story of his two victories won on June 3, 1940, for there is no doubt at all that he checked these translations very exactly. He confirmed this story at least 5 times including 1995 or 1996 (he passed away in February 1996, aged almost 84). This started 1953 (aged 41) and I am convinced that he knew what he was talking about. He never changed or corrected this story 1953-1996 contrary to some other ones in the same book (the 3 non-Belgian RAF “Hurricanes” he got on May 12 and more).

More on this: http://yves-michelet.over-blog.com/
Choose the chapters "Adolf Galland" etc. and (ON PAGE 2) "Mais enfin, qui diable…" (Who the hell is that Michelet fellow…). In both chapters numerous photographs of Galland etc. See also "Photos d'avions" (Aircraft photographs) - some gems there. I found it interesting.

Last edited by rof120; 11th May 2019 at 00:28.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:44
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Re: Galland's victories: Reply to Laurent Rizzotti - About translations, in particular of aviation books

Fascinating insight into the mistakes translator's can make.
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Old 11th May 2019, 16:13
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: Galland's victories: Reply to Laurent Rizzotti - About translations, in particular of aviation books

Perhaps it should be emphasized that an "amateur" translator can do very good work. E.g. Raimo Malkamäki and Hannu Valtonen have done excellent translations from German to Finnish due to being very familiar with correct terminology due to their hobby, yet both are "amateurs" (=they do not make living as translators).
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Old 11th May 2019, 17:10
rof120 rof120 is offline
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Good translators

Oh yes, I certainly believe you. Sadly the fact remains that in most cases… (see the few examples I quoted - I could go on like this for weeks or months). Think that countless books, articles etc. have been translated - including the Bible… Oh no, I'd rather not think of this.
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Old 15th May 2019, 20:32
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Galland’s victories on June 3, 1940 (Paris area) – A new element

Please don’t close this all too quickly and don’t move it to « Books and magazines » for the central point of this post is not a book - even though I mention one - but the date of 2 victories won by Galland. It is a historical point if you take Galland’s career and fame into account.

Displaying a degree of bravery hitherto unknown in world history just as well as my proverbial modesty I dived into a huge mountain of moving boxes containing mainly books and the like (NOT only on WW II) and using the last amount of energy in my body I managed to successfully unearth an interesting book:

FIGHTER GENERAL
The Life of Adolf Galland
THE OFFICIAL BIOGRAPHY
Col. Raymond F. Toliver, USAF (Ret.)
& Trevor J. Constable
Foreword by General James H. Doolittle, USAF (Ret.)

Published 1999 by Schiffer Publishing Company
Atglen, PA
(PA is short for Pennsylvania)

On page 4 there is a very modest piece of information, almost hidden among many others:
(Pages 1-6 are not numbered but the numbered pages start with N° 7 : “Foreword” by Gen. Doolitle)

The original German language edition of this book was published by Verlag Herbig GmbH, Munich

(MY red bold characters) Indeed, Herbig was Galland’s German publisher after Schneekluth in Darmstadt. So the original of this Toliver-Constable American book is German. Who translated it into American? Certainly not T and C. The translator is not named; regrettably this happens very often.

On page 42 (2nd half) we find some short explanations on operation Paula against French aero-industry and airfields in the Paris area, including Galland’s victories on 2 Moranes (no Curtiss mentioned – and it was a Bloch 152). The date of “Paula” is not mentioned (they probably forgot it, possibly at the printers’) but everybody knows it was June 3, 1940.

The original edition being German (1992) and written, or re-written, by Galland (I know this for sure; my source is extremely reliable), there is no doubt that he once more “claimed” (or confirmed) two confirmed victories on June 3. That settles it: he won 2 victories on French fighters on June 3, 1940. The 3rd one was not confirmed but nowadays it is perfectly confirmed by French sources such as Fr. Air Force archive and Paul Martin’s books, the 2nd one of which was published by the late CJE.

A lot of guys use to look at the archive of the former enemy to check on victory claims, and rightly so. Why should this not be done in this particular case? I really wonder why, this is really strange…

As I pointed out several times in the preceding Galland-thread he was very exact, and very exacting, about the precise details published in his books. Prior to the publication of the 2nd French edition (entirely comprehensive – 2.5 times longer than the preceding “translation” - and not ridiculous*, at last) he sent the new French publisher a whole list of corrections and additions. He was adamant that every change had to be made exactly as he had written it but he changed nothing about “Paula”. This cannot be coincidental, quite on the contrary: he also sent a list of his victories in May and June 1940.

In spite of the quick closing of the first Galland-thread in a hurry people continued to read it up to this day: today at 17.30 hrs it had been visited 1,717 times, to which we can add 397 for the thread on poor translations of aviation books (in particular Galland’s), hidden under “Books and magazines”, totalling 2,114 visits at 17.30 hrs and still going strong. This could be TOCH-record for such a short-lived thread plus such a special one (translations) with the exception of very specialised threads which interest many people, like details on Me 109s, EOE, Luftwaffe paints etc., most of these giant threads having been here for years or at least for months. TOCH-readers voted within a few days – not with their feet but with their clicks.

* An ejection seat and two parachutes in a Me 109 in June 1941, Munich-“Riehm” (read Riem, twice) a suburb of Salzburg (distance is about 100 km or 60 miles), and on and on… Riem was, and still is, a part of München (Munich). I lived in Munich for 8 years, I ought to know.

MORE on Galland, his book, various aircraft, exciting photographs, etc. in several parts of this blog:

yves-michelet.over-blog.com/

Last edited by rof120; 16th May 2019 at 16:19.
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Old 15th May 2019, 22:05
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Re: Galland’s victories on June 3, 1940 (Paris area) – A new element

Ah, my friend Yves.
If only I had not banned him...
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Old 15th May 2019, 23:24
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If only...

… you'd have been a lot more clever my friend.

All right, you were very young and didn't think of it. Perhaps God will forgive you?
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Old 16th May 2019, 00:01
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Galland’s victories on June 3, 1940 (Paris area) – A new element

Yves

No idea how many books the two individuals Toliver/Constable wrote named Fighter General The life of Adolf Galland, but my edition is from 1990 and was published by AmPress Publishing Inc.

Since you obviously hold your 1999 Schiffer book in high esteem I have to confess I do the absolute opposite regarding my 1990 version. It is unfortunately a very typical book written by two typical American authors. At least looking in the book I have, do you really think Adolf Galland would have resorted to novel like drama with actual conversations inserted? I also doubt very much Galland needed anyone to ghost write his own story 36 years after he had written his own book, and I doubt even more he would resort to such cheap "tricks".
Anyway both you and the two authors obviously share the same admiration for the late General.

I don't have the "original" German edition published in 1992, but since you for some reason believe this 1992 edition outrank the year 1990 edition, perhaps we should compare the two books, line by line, so we can be certain the German book is not a translation?

Since my 1990 issue does not have any date for his claims during Operation Paula (the date mentioned is only when Dunkirk fell, June 4th and it looks like the authors believe Op Paula began sometime after that date....), I presume the German issue did correct that fault, right?...
Hopefully they also corrected all the other faults in the book which the authors must have added from Galland's original script...

Looking at your blog, you obviously met Galland at least once, so I take it you have checked his log book (or other documentation) and can confirm you have seen the date in his papers! Perhaps you were even allowed to photograph it? Since Galland obviously must have had at least some documents back in 1954 to remember exactly what he did on June 3rd (and not 9th) I suggest you produce what you have to make you so sure his stated date is correct, otherwise we can go on forever, believing either in Galland or the main Luftwaffe researchers who all insist the date was June 9th.

At this point, I'm afraid, all you do is to repeat the same thing over and over again without producing any evidence, except the original version of Galland's book from 1954.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 16th May 2019, 18:59
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Talking Re: Galland’s victories on June 3, 1940 (Paris area) – A new element

Reply to Stig

SORRY for the green grinning head. I don't want it but can't delete it.

SJ: No idea how many books the two individuals Toliver/Constable wrote named Fighter General The life of Adolf Galland, but my edition is from 1990 and was published by AmPress Publishing Inc.

-Just det Stig, det är riktigt… er, sorry: Exactly Stig, this is correct. The book you mentioned was precisely what Galland couldn't stand because it was full of errors and he felt compelled to re-write it entirely. His new version was released 1992, the authors remaining the same (apparently), probably because of some contract(s) and legal factors. Same thing for the 1999 sequel.

SJ: Since you obviously hold your 1999 Schiffer book in high esteem

rof120: Inte alls, icke. Sorry: Not at all. I just mentioned its existence.

SJ: I have to confess I do the absolute opposite regarding my 1990 version. It is unfortunately a very typical book written by two typical American authors. At least looking in the book I have, do you really think Adolf Galland would have resorted to novel like drama with actual conversations inserted? I also doubt very much Galland needed anyone to ghost write his own story 36 years after he had written his own book, and I doubt even more he would resort to such cheap "tricks".

- Regrettably I never saw this 1990 book. IIRC it disappeared quickly and you could not purchase a copy. Add the fact that I learned of it belatedly, too late. So I can't have any opinion on it but the fact that Galland rewrote it entirely speaks for itself.

SJ: Anyway both you and the two authors obviously share the same admiration for the late General.

- My admiration is purely rational. Galland is NOT "my hero", the man I like and admire most. I highly respect his bravery and his feats, that's all. I like his humour including when he is at the receiving end of his own humour or mockery, which often is considered the highest quality of humour (I agree). His very high position within the Luftwaffe doesn't impress me (not others either). I feel if he had been allowed to fight all the way until Nazi Germany was defeated he probably would have been killed in action for he was clearly too combat-eager and too aggressive, which sooner or later would have cost his life, rather sooner, as the events on June 21, 1941 clearly show. He very nearly was killed and on two occasions during this day. He simply could have been killed outright in his cockpit by cannon-fire. Only luck kept him alive.

SJ: I don't have the "original" German edition published in 1992, but since you for some reason believe this 1992 edition outrank the year 1990 edition, perhaps we should compare the two books, line by line, so we can be certain the German book is not a translation?

- I don't have the 1990 T-C book and I would feel such an effort wouldn't make any sense - without wanting to antagonize you - for I am positive that Galland didn't like the 1990 version at all, which is why he re-wrote it entirely in a hospital bed after heavy heart surgery. I think the 1992 German editon is still available (officially the authors are T-C), on the Internet in any case. Publishers are Herbig.

But if you have a copy each of both the 1990 and 1999 English editions you can make this comparison easily, this is your private pleasure. Var inte arg Stig, jag skojar bara (Don't be angry, just joking.)

SJ: Since my 1990 issue does not have any date for his claims during Operation Paula (the date mentioned is only when Dunkirk fell, June 4th and it looks like the authors believe Op Paula began sometime after that date....), I presume the German issue did correct that fault, right?...

- Nope, too bad. "Operation Paula" is mentioned four times in the two last paragraphs of page 66, Galland's participation is mentioned too with the usual details on collision damage suffered by his 109. It is fully possible that Galland simply forgot to add the missing date - June 3 - or grumpily considered it was unnecessary to add it for everybody knows anyway. We should not forget that he recently had had heart surgery… Rewriting a whole, complex book under such circumstances could be his greatest exploit ever but especially then the oversight of a missing date could easily happen. In any case his victories during Operation "Paula" are more or less mentioned here too, one of them very clearly, explicitely.

SJ: Hopefully they also corrected all the other faults in the book which the authors must have added from Galland's original script…

- Script and talks. I suspect that they did not record what he was saying but wrote, later, from memory, mixing up various things and forgetting others.

SJ: Looking at your blog, you obviously met Galland at least once, so I take it you have checked his log book (or other documentation) and can confirm you have seen the date in his papers! Perhaps you were even allowed to photograph it? Since Galland obviously must have had at least some documents back in 1954 to remember exactly what he did on June 3rd (and not 9th) I suggest you produce what you have to make you so sure his stated date is correct, otherwise we can go on forever, believing either in Galland or the main Luftwaffe researchers who all insist the date was June 9th.

- Unfortunately I never even as much as saw his logbook nor other relevant documents. At the time - in the 1980s, which is 30-40 years ago - such things were not as eagerly sought-after as they are today. If they had been there is no doubt that I would have asked to see them and that permission would have been granted to me. I never even thought of it. I had no reason to have any doubts.

SJ: At this point, I'm afraid, all you do is to repeat the same thing over and over again without producing any evidence, except the original version of Galland's book from 1954.

- Not quite. I started this new thread because I had unearthed my copy of the last Galland-book in English signed by T-C but written by Galland. This was a NEW element in my demonstration.

To sum up, let us say that Galland gave his version (victories on June 3, 1940) in the first edition of his first book and that he never changed this version but confirmed it in writing several times. It can't be coincidental because, for example 1985, he drew up the list of his 14 first victories with details of time and location, had this list typed and checked it for typos after it was typed.

What do we need more as evidence? Millions of statements made by historians have about one thousand times less solid evidence.

Sorry guys, I have to pause for a while now. Lots of paperwork. Tax office wants to eat me. I'm very scared.

PS: when I started the first thread on Galland's victories I genuinely hoped that somebody, or several ones, would shed light on this question but I was wrong. I have been owning the corresponding books for about 15-20 years.

"Cheers
Stig"

Last edited by rof120; 17th May 2019 at 16:30.
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Old 17th May 2019, 00:23
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Galland’s victories on June 3, 1940 (Paris area) – A new element

Dear Yves

Not sure why you imply you are Swedish fluent. Has it anything to do with the topic or are you just trying to show off?

Neither do I understand why you call me variously with SJ, ST and JP nor why you sign your message with "Cheers Stig"

You say you have no admiration as such for Galland. Well starting three different messages with basically the same topic, to prove Galland claimed two victories on June 3rd instead of June 9th is perhaps more to be sorted under obsession than admiration, but let us not delve into psychology since it would be to stray outside the topic itself.

The interesting point is that you for some reason seems to have every issue of every major translation made by Galland's books. Just so I am not missing something can you please scan two perhaps even three pages from the 1992 German edition of the T-C book so I can personally satisfy myself it is completely re-written by Galland. Perhaps you also have something in writing which confirm that? Quite frankly I have never come across anyone before who collects every translation made of a book by any individual. Obsession? Sorry, we should leave that out of the picture....

Am I correct in interpreting your answer that only the German edition of "Fighter General" is edited/re-written by Galland and that the 1999 Schiffer edition is simply a re-print of the 1990 original AmPress edition? Since you have mentioned the Schiffer book at least twice in your three messages I must wonder in such a case why you never mentioned the original book from 1990 called "Fighter General"?

This re-writing done by Galland is intriguing. It is quite unusual, I think, since I have never come across that before. That books are edited when translated, yes indeed, but that usually is by footnotes. Changing any text would in fact be a legal issue, so I take it the German publisher do have some kind of legal document saying the two American authors agreed to that? Since you must have seen that, I take it you have some kind of copy (or can produce one), so we all can see that?

Even more interesting to me is that the main topic of your messages (the two claims from June 3rd) was not edited into the 1992 German edition. That could hardly have been any problem for Galland, since after all, all he needed to do was to look in his first book, it is all there!

It is interesting you state you have actually no evidence of any of Galland's victories, but you obviously have a list written (by him ?) in 1985, presumably giving all his claims and not only his first 14? Whatever, can we have a scan of that please? So far I have never seen a claim list made out by the late General himself, so it would be very interesting for everyone here on TOCH to see it.

Finally I have to direct my apologies to all TOCH members for being so wordy, but I am fascinated by the whole situation.
Yves, so far you have not produced a single evidence that Galland was correct. Everything you bring up could easily be dismissed as heresay.
Don't you think it is time you produce something useful, both for me (as a strict amateur) and for all others, some at least who can be called semi-professionals? I am sure they are as interested as I am.

Cheers
Stig
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