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  #221  
Old 29th December 2018, 10:58
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Extract from CX/MSS/26, 1941:

20/6, I/JG. 27 Bf. 109 C-7 works number 6375 : 100% loss on take off, no injuries.
-
"Field Post No. L 02689 is connected with Field Court Martial of Fliegerfuehrer AFRIKA at present at H.Q. Aerodrome Regional Command BENGASI and can be reached at H.Q. Luftgau Post Office MUNICH. (21/6)"
A Bf109 E-7(/Trop), Indeed.
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  #222  
Old 29th December 2018, 11:38
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by ouidjat View Post
A Bf109 E-7(/Trop), Indeed.
Interesting. I wondered when I typed the 'C - 7' if this was a typo, and have double-checked the original. It clearly says C-7.

I have no further knowledge of this particular a/c but this seems like a good time to shine some light on the process at BP used to compile these reports daily.
The Allied Intelligence Officers at BP used a grading system to show if there was any doubt about the decrypt or possible alternative meanings. If the 'C - 7' had been in question it would have been in brackets like this: (C - 7) and possibly with a letter grading (A), (B) (C) etc. which indicated how confident the compiler was; 'A' being 100% and 'C' being 'likely but use caution'. None of this happened in this passage in this CX/MSS report so the German text said 'C - 7'.

Hopefully posting works numbers will plug some holes in databases. I hope this helps.

Feedback is welcome.


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Last edited by Bruce Dennis; 29th December 2018 at 13:49.
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  #223  
Old 29th December 2018, 17:36
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Interesting. I wondered when I typed the 'C - 7' if this was a typo, and have double-checked the original. It clearly says C-7.

I have no further knowledge of this particular a/c but this seems like a good time to shine some light on the process at BP used to compile these reports daily.
The Allied Intelligence Officers at BP used a grading system to show if there was any doubt about the decrypt or possible alternative meanings. If the 'C - 7' had been in question it would have been in brackets like this: (C - 7) and possibly with a letter grading (A), (B) (C) etc. which indicated how confident the compiler was; 'A' being 100% and 'C' being 'likely but use caution'. None of this happened in this passage in this CX/MSS report so the German text said 'C - 7'.

Hopefully posting works numbers will plug some holes in databases. I hope this helps.

Feedback is welcome.


Bruce
Hi Bruce,

Might be a typo since the loss of this machine is clearly reported (same unit, same day, same cause, same result) at Ain-el-Gazala (Fl.Pl.)

Sources: (via Georg Morrison)
Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, V, p.375; Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer, Stab & I./JG 27, p.540

Regards,
Franck.
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  #224  
Old 17th January 2019, 17:48
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

THE ULTRA "R" SERIES:

This is only my 3rd question out of nearly 7,000 posts on TOCH since 2001 using three different screen names, so my hopes are running high.

Here it is: I have researched my way through all of DEFE 3 and a great deal of HW 5, thanks to Andrew Arthy, "Sam" from Texas and several other kind colleagues. But I have never seen or much less researched the ULTRA "R" series (sample citation: MSS/R. 283(C)/32). QUESTION: is this series available online from BNA? If not, has anyone ever digitally photographed it and put it on CDs/DVDs? The "R" series seems to contain a lot of detailed information that, at the time, Bletchley considered too minor or too old to put in the main ULTRA CX/MSS/Txxx series.

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated!

Larry de Zeng
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  #225  
Old 17th January 2019, 18:06
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Larry

My response for what it's worth. This is purely my take and happy for anyone to correct me.

Each HW5 file contains a mixture of T (Teleprint) and R (Report) messages. The R messages which for my own purposes I call 'low grade Ultra' as these weren't distributed. These are split into a number of batches, usually A - D.

Section R.283 appears in HW5/568. I'm not aware of any files containing just R messages.

From my perspective, I find the R messages far more interesting than the T messages.

Regrettably, this material is not available online and one must visit Kew and slowly work through the files. It really is a slow old process. I've been photographing selected portions of these as chunks of the messages are not in my view particularly useful. I appreciate other people's mileage may vary.

I was in contact with Doug before Christmas about making some of these available to you and hope to do so this year.

Steve
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  #226  
Old 17th January 2019, 18:24
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Hello Steve,
Just for clarity, what is your source of the 'R = report' distinction you have quoted?

Regards,
Bruce
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  #227  
Old 17th January 2019, 18:31
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry deZeng View Post
I have never seen or much less researched the ULTRA "R" series (sample citation: MSS/R. 283(C)/32). QUESTION: is this series available online from BNA? If not, has anyone ever digitally photographed it and put it on CDs/DVDs? The "R" series seems to contain a lot of detailed information that, at the time, Bletchley considered too minor or too old to put in the main ULTRA CX/MSS/Txxx series.

Any information on this would be greatly appreciated!

Larry de Zeng
These reports are on paper in hard-bound volumes and are not online. There are 767 files in the HW 5 series but "only" the first 703 of these are the main ULTRA army/air decrypts (AFAIK all the naval material is online in DEFE 3). I can't begin to estimate how long it would take the photograph all that material (the volumes wouldn't open flat enough to go on a scanner without damage).

The "R" (reports) pages of each file are considerably fewer than the "T" pages (teleprints) but even so it would be an enormous undertaking to photograph just those. It's also worth noting that the Teleprints come in two forms, the wording sent to (e.g.) War Office, Admiralty and "BB" (Broadway Buildings, the wartime HQ of the Secret Intelligence Service) and the less detailed version for overseas commands which you see in DEFE 3.

As you've said, not everything in the Reports appears in the Teleprints but the converse is also true, so you really need both.
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  #228  
Old 17th January 2019, 18:42
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Hello Steve,
Just for clarity, what is your source of the 'R = report' distinction you have quoted?

Regards,
Bruce
There are repeated references to items being either teleprinted or not teleprinted. I can't remember where I saw that R = reports but it would have been in the files themselves.
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  #229  
Old 17th January 2019, 19:10
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Nick - Thanks for your response.

Bruce - Just to follow up on R=Reports, I am pretty sure that this was a by-product of Nick's research and appeared on his site.

The files between HW5/704 and HW5/767 are a mixed bag but mostly useless to Lufties. HW5/767 does contain some interesting material on the late war movements of high-ranking Nazis.

HW5/737 for some reason contains details of a couple of losses which I don't believe are found elsewhere and as such is worth a quick look.
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  #230  
Old 17th January 2019, 21:42
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Regarding what "R" and "T" stand for … When I first started on HW 5 files (in 2006), I wrote this in my notes:
HW 5/447 CX/MSS Reports & Teleprints Nos. 113–114
So I guess that is what it said in the catalogue (which may still have been the paper version) at the time.
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