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  #231  
Old 17th January 2019, 22:40
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Thanks Nick, that is what I thought. It may well be that this is the correct way to read the meaning of 'R' and 'T'. The thing is, I am not sure whether or not it is a coincidence that 'R' and 'T' appear in this collection of 'Reports' and 'Teleprints'.

The reason is that there are many reports but only a few have the 'R' in their individual title. Look at the example given by Larry: MSS/R. 283(C)/32. This just does not fit into the strict sequential profile of the bulk of the reports (for example CX/MSS/26 cited in my post #216). I have never spotted a break in the sequence of CX/MSS/ numbers and believe the 'R' series is, somehow, different. I don't have an answer, but I believe they are either from a specific source or were produced in response to specific requests for information.

While I am on the soapbox, it is worth pointing out that the 'T' series are, broadly speaking, reports on naval matters. Certainly in 1943 these were mostly to do with the Mediterranean/Aegean.

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Bruce
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Last edited by Bruce Dennis; 17th January 2019 at 23:12.
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  #232  
Old 17th January 2019, 23:35
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Thanks Nick, that is what I thought. It may well be that this is the correct way to read the meaning of 'R' and 'T'. The thing is, I am not sure whether or not it is a coincidence that 'R' and 'T' appear in this collection of 'Reports' and 'Teleprints'.

The reason is that there are many reports but only a few have the 'R' in their individual title. Look at the example given by Larry: MSS/R. 283(C)/32.
On the contrary, they have CX/MSS/R at the head of the page, and then each individual item has a number (I don't have Larry's example but my nearest page is attached.

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This just does not fit into the strict sequential profile of the bulk of the reports (for example CX/MSS/26 cited in my post #216). I have never spotted a break in the sequence of CX/MSS/ numbers and believe the 'R' series is, somehow, different. I don't have an answer, but I believe they are either from a specific source or were produced in response to specific requests for information.
The first ULTRAS were the CX/FJ series, then at the end of May 1940 this gave way to CX/JQ. At that stage there was no report/teleprint division although some of the reports were marked to indicate that they had been teleprinted.

In July 1941 they changed over to the MSS series. (I know this from the TNA catalogue, I have not looked at any 1941 files so far). MSS = Most Secret Source.

By mid-1942 the files consist of teleprints (e.g. CX/MSS/992/T9) which are individual signals to one or more commands, and alongside each set of these are some pages of numbered paragraphs with a common heading (in this case CX/MSS/992) which correspond directly to what later would be the CX/MSS/R… pages.

That system ends in mid-November 1943 with CX/MSS/3523. From then on, the "CX/MSS/R1(1) para. 1" + "CX/MSS/T1/1" system begins and continues through to the end of the war.

Quote:
While I am on the soapbox, it is worth pointing out that the 'T' series are, broadly speaking, reports on naval matters. Certainly in 1943 these were mostly to do with the Mediterranean/Aegean.
The naval ones I meant are the various ZTP… sub-series (Z = Zip, Admiralty-speak for ULTRA and TP = teleprint): ZTPG, ZTPGM, ZTPGU etc. You will get a few of these on the other files, e.g. where there is an air connection but there are vast numbers in the individual naval files.
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  #233  
Old 18th January 2019, 00:20
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Nick

Based upon the files I've looked at, I am in entire agreement as to your first point.

The remainder of your response is very helpful.

Steve
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  #234  
Old 18th January 2019, 00:47
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
On the contrary, they have CX/MSS/R at the head of the page, and then each individual item has a number ...
Now I am intrigued: the top of what page? I have just looked at a hundred pages and didn’t find an example but each page was identified with the CX/MSS number. Since I very rarely copied the first page of the HW5 daily reports, being more focussed on North Africa/South Europe/Southeast Europe which was further inside, I may have completely missed this use of ‘R’. I assume it is there?

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Bruce
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  #235  
Old 18th January 2019, 08:45
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Now I am intrigued: the top of what page? I have just looked at a hundred pages and didn’t find an example but each page was identified with the CX/MSS number. Since I very rarely copied the first page of the HW5 daily reports, being more focussed on North Africa/South Europe/Southeast Europe which was further inside. I may have completely missed this use of ‘R’. I assume it is there?

Regards
See the example I attached to my post. From November 1943 all the pages of the “reports” section that I have seen—which is a lot—have that type of heading: CX/MSS/R, then a number (1 on the first day this system was adopted, 2 on the second day etc.) then a letter from (A)–(E) in brackets denoting the theatre of operations. (A = Germany, B = South, C= West. D and E were used for South East and East but things change as decrypts from Russia dry up and again right at the end of the war when German organisation breaks down)
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  #236  
Old 18th January 2019, 10:15
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Thank you, Nick, as always.

Bruce
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  #237  
Old 18th January 2019, 19:11
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Thank you Steve, Nick and Bruce! You answered my question. I think there is definitely some material in the "R" reports that would be both interesting and useful, but sometimes we just have to step back, sigh, and say that now old and very shop-worn cliché, "it's just a bridge too far." My archive-crawling days are over and were 15 years ago.

BTW, I am almost certain that there is mention of the "R" reports in these and the dozens of other books on the subject as well as in the hundreds of articles published in Cryptologia, International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, Intelligence and National Security, and other scholarly journals.

Bennett, Ralph. ULTRA in the West: The Normandy Campaign 1944-45. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1979.
Bennett, Ralph. ULTRA and Mediterranean Strategy. New York: William Morrow and Co., 1989.
Hinsley, F.H. et al. British Intelligence in the Second World War. 4 vols. London: HMSO, c.1984-88.
Lewin, Ronald. ULTRA Goes to War: The First Account of World War II’s Greatest Secret Based on Official Documents. New York: Pocket Books, 1980.
Parrish, Thomas. The ULTRA Americans: The U.S. Role in Breaking the Nazi Codes. New York: Stein and Day, 1986.
Sebag-Montefiore, Hugh. Enigma: The Battle for the Code. New York: John Wiley & Sons, 2000.
Welchman, Gordon. The Hut Six Story: Breaking the Enigma Codes. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., 1982.

L.
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  #238  
Old 18th January 2019, 19:42
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

I understand that all Ultra messages shall be put online in some future. Meanwhile, I find TNA files just too big and too complicated to download to handle. Have you ever thought about breaking them in single frames?
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  #239  
Old 18th January 2019, 20:15
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

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Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
I understand that all Ultra messages shall be put online in some future. Meanwhile, I find TNA files just too big and too complicated to download to handle. Have you ever thought about breaking them in single frames?
If you're talking about the DEFE 3 ULTRAs, I use the online viewer and make screen captures of the ones I want.
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  #240  
Old 18th January 2019, 22:01
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Re: Using Ultra to research the Luftwaffe

Nick/Franek,

Recently the National Archives appear to have changed their processes regarding the DEFE3 files and break them down into several sub files for "ease" of downloading.

e.g. DEFE3/831 is 190 mb and is now broken down into 4 files for downloading

A few years ago when I downloaded DEFE3/747 I was provided with 1 file of approx 250mb. When I download that same file tonight they have now reduced the overall file size to 212 mb but broken this into 5 separate files, each of approx 42mb.

While this helps some users it just adds an extra layer into the process as you have to wait while the file is broken down before you can commence the download.
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