ors files?

[RodM]

Hi Icare9/Thor,

some further comments:

Icare9, I cannot be sure but the Nachtjagd seemed to use a combination of non-tracer and tracer. I have seen many reports from Allied crews of seeing air-to-air tracer, particularly that fired from the horizontal armament of a night fighter.

With regard to LM742, the brief account by Knight indicates that the engines and wing of the aircraft were on fire and that the fire had breeched the W/Op/Nav compartment just forward of the main spar. This would indicate that the fire was in the fuel tanks and possibly the cross-feed pipes. Knight, the navigator, received burns to the face and hands, slight burns to his legs, and received a gash on the head. He mentions that the W/Operator was also burnt. There is no reference to the bomb load so it is not possible to know if this was on fire as well.

From Knight's account and that of witnesses on the ground, it would seem possible that one or both of the starboard fuel tanks exploded. Knight does not say where he was when he was 'blown out' of the aircraft, but he would seem to have been at or near his station. Such an explosion would not necessarily destroy the whole aircraft. Common results of such explosions would be a wing breaking off or the nose section forward of the main spar breaking away (this latter result was not infrequent in a number of crashes I've investigated).

After going through the 5 Group Form Z again, I found another interesting entry under 'decoys and dummies': "5025 N 1210E 2220 15000 Group of fires on ground appeared to be turned on in sequence with susicious regularity with two explosions." (source: AIR 14/3227)

This was intrepreted as a decoy site to lure bombs, but could, in fact, have been the fires and explosions of an aircraft that had crashed.

Another interesting point,- a Nachtjagd Bf110 fighter of III./NJG1 crashed near Hilburghausen, some 80 km west of LM742, after running out of fuel. This was the area where the BC ORS stated that a loss was seen due to a fighter (Coburg) and from the Forms Z, an aircraft was seen to crash in the area at 2155-2200 hours. The sightings of aircraft crashing/fires on the ground reported near the crash location of LM742 give a time of 2220-2223 hours.

The Bf110 may have been the one flown by Fw. Lahmann, I don't know for sure because the identity of the pilot is not given in the Namenliche Verlustmeldung, so I'm going on the account provided in post # 8. The time of 2157 when a crash was witnessed by an RAF crew is within one minute of the time (2156) when Lahmann claimed an abschuss. An interesting possible connection, but rather meaningless considering all that is known is the time of Lahmann's claim (via the III./NJG1 Abschuesseliste at the BA/MA, Freiburg) and not the location. If III./NJG1 had followed the Brux stream this far eastward (and this is purely conjecture) then it is possible that the claim of Lt. Joachim Sommerau at 22.10 (again, only the time is known via the III./NJG1 Abschuesseliste) could relate to LM742, if, in fact, that aircraft was shot down by a night fighter.

I only mention this to illustrate a counter argument to the case put forward by Prof. Jorg Helbig, Dr.Rudolf Laser and Winfried Bock. While both arguments could somehow have merit, both could also be completely wrong. There just does not appear to be enough surviving evidence to reach such conclusions.

Cheers

Rod

[Icare9]

Thanks Rod. As said, I'm out of my depth here, so with the absence of and conflicting evidence, it seems that the precise cause of loss will be hard to trace without further documents coming to light.

I wish I could have so much expertise devoted to HR732, then we might be able to find its crash site and some closure for the families and the pilots widow. The Ju88 that may have shot them down was only found in the late 1990's near Hamburg.

[RodM]

Hi Icare9/Thor,

re: HR732, unfortunately the BC ORS did not do a post-war analysis of losses against the Form Zs for the month of December 1944, so that useful source of information doesn't exist.

It is just a fact of life that 60+ years on, there is much information that is lost forever, and some events can no longer be accurately or conclusively reconstructed.

Thor, if you PM me, I can send you a PDF file containing Google Earth plots of the outward route of the Zeitz raid, with brief, accompanying notes, to illustrate my previous post...

Cheers

Rod

[RodM]

[quote=thorthemighty;108248]Do you know what information is held in AIR 14/3412 "Operational Research Section: final reports on operations, night raids, Nos. 621-914, 1944 June-1945 May" and AIR 14/2689 "Operational Research Section reports 1944 Nov.-1945 Feb"? Do or could these contain information about the loss of LM472 and the designation as a "friendly fire" incident. I rang kew to see if they could give me any more information about the content of these files but they couldn't over the phone.
quote]


Hi Thor,

apologies, I forgot to answer this part of your post. None of the file you mentioned will contain information on the reasons why the BC ORS made the friendly fire assessment. The assessment was made after May 1945, presumably after Knight returned to the UK and was debriefed. The final reports on operations in AIR 14/3412 only contain a summary of the losses suffered, with (from memory) a break down by cause ('same as in the Interception Tactics Report).

AIR 14/2689 will contain reports, but on various operational matters such as navigation, bombing accuracy etc.

Cheers

Rod

[Observer1940]

Hello Rod

I have been absolutely astounded, reading with great interest some of your posts and others about Bomber Command ORS Reports and Bomber Command Z Forms!
The AIR 14 series and other AIR records at TNA, Kew, for August 1940 do not seem to have as much detail regarding some Ops of interest, despite fairly extensive searching!

Mark

[thorthemighty]

Originally Posted by Icare9

I wish I could have so much expertise devoted to HR732, then we might be able to find its crash site and some closure for the families and the pilots widow. The Ju88 that may have shot them down was only found in the late 1990's near Hamburg.

Hi Icare9,

I'm a little behind in the discussion, haven't been online in a few days. In trying to locate the crash site for HR732 it may be worthwhile contacting the aircrew remembrance society, who say they can assist in that sort of thing. http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com/

Some others who could possibly be of assistance can be found here!!
http://www.missing-airmen.info/

I hope that is of some help in your quest!


Thor

PS. I can add a little more information about the crash of LM472...but the details are certainly fuzzy....

[thorthemighty]

Hi Rod/Icare9/Mark,

Originally Posted by Icare9

Do you know for sure whether LM472 came down as large pieces of wreckage (indicating some heavy damage) or as pieces widely scattered (indicating a mid air explosion)?

Here are some more "details" about the crash and the aftermath.....once again any thoughts greatly appreciated!

Eye-Witness reports from Geilsdorf:

“On the 16 January 1945 we heard many planes in flight over our surroundings. One of them appeared very low over our village, Geilsdorf. It was burning. Many of our neighbours were afraid of the crash of plane into village houses. But burning plane glided over hill next to and blew up there”

“We saw a burning plane very low flying. It crashed into the lead of high electricity tension (power lines) and blew up. The crash site was about 30 metres from the road between Ruderitz and Geilsdorf.. Many parts, including engine, were on the opposite side of the road.-until 300 meters far."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

16th January 1945

The first at the scene of the crash was K Borowski (The Pole) who walked immediately from Schwand and found the survivor Jack Knight warming his hands by the burning plane. K.Borowski noted that the dizzy Jack Knight who was later walking around like a ghost, was completely confused and had absolutely NO recollections of the circumstances of his and his crew's demise.

Because Jack Knight was located near the rear Gunner’s compartment, at first he was thought to be the rear gunner. It was snowing, with the temperature around minus 18 degrees. At that time, they were only able to locate two bodies.

Other villagers appeared on the crash site, and because Plauen was bombed in daylight hours, by 8th USAAF the locals were becoming “agitated” with the presence of a “foreign airman”. Many of them had relatives/friends in Plauen.

Jack Knight was taken to a local inn - Goldener Lowe (golden lion) - in order to get out of the snow and to receive some treatment for his burns. It was at THIS STAGE that Jack Knights mind and memory started to return and he realised the situation he was in, although he couldn't understand what anyone was saying. Again the locals became agitated and one woman, Frau Baumgartel took him to her home for the night.

The Luftwaffe party took over 30 minutes to reach the crash because of the snow and distance to travel from Plauen.


17 January 1945

The School teacher, Rudolf Schneider from Reichenbach/Vogtl, was asked to provide senior students to form a search party to locate the rest of the crew.- the outstanding five bodies were found deep in the snow.

A fireman from Obersdorf,, near Sangerhausen/Thuringia, and another from the firebrigade of Krebes-Weischlitz were called upon to de-activated the bombs.

The names of the deceased were made by the Commanding Officer from the Luftwaffe party, Gestapo Major OMUNS-who identified the remains by clothing and tags.(assisted by Jack Knight) His English was not good, and there were several misspellings.
Jack Knight was taken to Lazarett, Plauen and then to Chemnitz for treatment.

The wreckage of LM 472 was taken to PIRK and up until 1946 remained there beside a B 17 shot down at Ruderitz, 8 April 1945 (35 cart loads).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by RodM

From Knight's account and that of witnesses on the ground, it would seem possible that one or both of the starboard fuel tanks exploded. Knight does not say where he was when he was 'blown out' of the aircraft, but he would seem to have been at or near his station. Such an explosion would not necessarily destroy the whole aircraft. Common results of such explosions would be a wing breaking off or the nose section forward of the main spar breaking away (this latter result was not infrequent in a number of crashes I've investigated).

It would appear there was some "spread" of material...one eyewitness reported 300m spread at least....and being on two sides of the road would perhaps indicate that the a/c hadn't just impacted the ground...but had exploded in the air...but how high in the air is as already noted confusing....

Jack Knight was found at the plane. This differs from the experience of Al Hymers - http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,alhymers.html - who bailed out from LM213 on the Zeitz raid...and saw it sail off into the distance!! If Knight had bailed out or been blown from the a/c at around 10,000 feet would or could he have landed with the wreckage of the plane??? or does this indicate that, as the eye-witness reports state, that the a/c hit power lines or blew up at a low altitude...are they in fact correct? For me I am inclined to think so but I do not have a great knowledge of crashed ww2 bombers...so PLEASE set me straight if I am mistaken!!

Additionally, as you mentioned the bomb load.....to the best of my knowledge ALL of the bombs was recovered and defused.

Originally Posted by RodM

The Bf110 may have been the one flown by Fw. Lahmann, I don't know for sure because the identity of the pilot is not given in the Namenliche Verlustmeldung, so I'm going on the account provided in post # 8. The time of 2157 when a crash was witnessed by an RAF crew is within one minute of the time (2156) when Lahmann claimed an abschuss. An interesting possible connection, but rather meaningless considering all that is known is the time of Lahmann's claim (via the III./NJG1 Abschuesseliste at the BA/MA, Freiburg) and not the location.

The following details came from a historian of Thuringia via Ray Collins....it has some pertinence in the general scheme of the events of the night...

"Fw.Lahmann was seen engulfed on fire around 22.00 hrs. He came from North Bavaria into Thuringia region circling around and then two airmens was seen baling out, the pilot Lahmann and the R/O, the Gunner bale out but struck tailfin of the Me llo and fell to his death. crashplace is the HESSBERG nr.HILDBURGHAUSEN.

His Loss is corresponds with a claim from Lancastergunners of the Zeitzraiders."



thanks again guys,


Thor


ps. to put some faces to the crew...here is a pic. top -left to right - jack knight - dan conroy - des mcgonigle - jim mcdowell - jack armour - bottom - left to right - warren hart - laurie collins - bob beckett (my great uncle is Des McGonigle the pilot - top center - and Laurie Collins the wop - bottom center - is Ray's brother)

[Icare9]

TTM: Thanks for the links, I'll try and breathe new like into previous postings and see what shakes out..

I can't do much except suggest you look at what can be determined from the various reports.

Weather. It's reported as snowing, so much that it takes the Luftwaffe 30 mins to drive there from Plauen. Is that an unusual length of time really? If it was a blizzard, then eyewitnesses aren't really going to see much air activity until it's on top of them.
Similarly, for the bombers, wouldn't heavy snow clouds hamper target marking, yet that doesn't seem to be so. So what was the weather situation?

Witnesses. Assuming that it is likely there were snow clouds, they could have been below 10,000 feet, explaining why crews reported what they saw to that level. Dropping out of the stream, a burning aircraft is bound to be shedding debris, from cannon or flak hits etc, plus the force of the slipstream, crew kicking out hatches etc ... Another attack or simply a fuel tank or engine falling off could have been seen as an "explosion" sufficient that the bomber isn't capable of returning...

Ground witnesses state it appeared (out of the snowstorm) burning fiercely yet they don't remark that it was falling in pieces after a low mid air explosion, but almost as if still able to be a "controlled" crash in (perhaps) avoiding the village. The debris field of 300 metres might match a low angle impact and skid, shedding components as it decelerated.
It might be argued that the crew died in avoiding crashing onto the village, killing many residents....
The bomb load was also intact and had to be defused, so any "explosion" seen had to be fuel or other parts separating, such as wing, engine etc.

For Jack Knight to have been found by the wreck indicates that he, like the rest of the crew were still aboard. If the aircraft were fatally unstable, spinning uncontrollably, perhaps they couldn't get out, but there was no comment from other bomber crews that the aircraft seen was out of control (although they may have thought it was a "goner" so didn't need to be too graphic). It could be then, that no order to abandon the aircraft was given, the pilot assuming he had sufficient control to crash land successfully.
There should have been sufficient time in descending from 17,000 feet for at least some of the crew to have baled out. I don't think he would have landed by parachute close to the wreck unless the altitude was quite low, plus I would have thought some remark about the parachute would have been noted...

Whether anyone can make a sensible scenario, out of what appear to be some conflicting accounts, may not be possible.

[RodM]

Hi Thor,

thanks for the comprehensive reply and for posting the crew photo (it is always good to put faces to names).

Thanks also for confirming the Lahmann loss, although the statement about the night fighter being claimed by Lancaster gunners is incorrect because no returning crews of the Zeitz raid made a combat claim (destroyed, probable, or damaged). Whether or not a crew reported a combat in the area is now impossible to know because the 1 Grp Form Z appears not to have been preserved. Also, it is not possible to know if the combat involved an aircraft that was shot down later. Note that returning crews witnessed a crash in the Coburg area that was intrepreted as a bomber being shot down by a night fighter (this was some 80 km west of where LM742 crashed). No aircraft has been traced as crashing in this area, and it is possible that the aircraft seen to crash was in fact Lahmann's Bf110, but this is conjecture.

With regards to Knight's capture, he states in his RAAF questionnaire that he was "captured several hours later by civilians", but his memory of the passage of time could have been distorted by his disorientation after his parachute escape.

For Knight to have survived after being blown out of the aircraft, he had to be at sufficient height to open his parachute and decelerate his fall. He would not have survived if the explosion had happened close to the ground.

With regards to Knight being found near the wreckage, note that no mention is made of his parachute, which surely would have been close by if he'd landed close by. I don't think it is possible to know where he landed without further evidence from Knight. He could conceivably have walked a short distance to the crash site.

It is interesting that you mention that a search had to be mounted to locate the remaining bodies of the crew and that they were found "deep in snow". This begs the question - how far from the crash site were the five bodies spread? This would be suggestive of them either being blown out of the aircraft in a mid-air explosion or baling out at low-level bail if they were not found at the site of the crash.

I still believe that the two critical documents are both classifed with the British MoD - one being the original Luftgau crash report and the other being Knight's Loss of Bomber Aircraft questionnaire (which would be more detailed than his RAAF statement).

Cheers

Rod

PS - for other's browsing this thread, I've attached a jpeg map to illustrate the various points throughout this thread. Note that the little squares on the map with times, are the positions of reported sightings of aircraft seen to crash by returning RAF crews - green: crew on Zeitz raid, yellow: crew on Brux raid. The top-most yellow line is the briefed route of the Zeitz bomber stream (flying from left to right) and the bottom line is the briefed route of the Brux bomber stream, flying left to right.

Hello Rod, I am fascinated by the depth of understanding and the wealth of knowledge you apparently have on this subject. I am the grand-niece of the pilot of PB402, lost on January 16, 1945 on the Zeitz raid. I have visited the crash site and seen remnants of the plane. In July 2010 an unexploded 500 lb bomb was found and defused at the site.

I am attaching jpegs of the two page investigative report from February 1947. I would be very interested in your comments, especially in the 20 minute gap between explosions. I suppose the second explosion could have been a bomb exploding sometime after the crash. The bodies from PB402 were mostly in fairly good shape. A local we met at the site remembers the pilot still in his seat.