74. Squadron Spitfire lost on 21.5.1940

[Faenor]

Hi all,

I have a question about loss of Spitfire from this day and his serial number.

Based on info from book Battle of France Then and Now by author Peter Cornwell, it was Spitfire Mk. I K9977 - pilot P/O R.D. Aubert, who forces-landed at Berck-sur-Mer after the attack on Ju 88s near Calais. pilot was unhurt and Spit abandoned.

Based on these 2 links, serial number K9977 was transferred to 602. SQ and crashed 30.12.1939 - more info on links.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=95054
http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/K9977

Thanks for help

Faenor

[Kaiyan]

do not know if this helps but

ZP-J 22.05.40 Aubert in K9867 force landed at Berck-sur-Mer

[Faenor]

Hi Kaiyan,

I ave info about this machine (and more photos), but Í m interesting in machine lost day before and issue with serial number-machine could not be lost in 2 different days..........

Faenor

[Faenor]

hi all,

the right serial number is K9957 :

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14501981
http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/K9957

Solved from my side.

Faenor

[Stig Jarlevik]

Faenor

Interesting topic!

There is a problem with both dates and aircraft here.

If we concentrate on the pilot, what Kaiyan says is that many sources list P/O R.D. Aubert as having force landed on the 22nd and not 21st as stated in BofF.

If we then concentrate on the aircraft
K9977 is listed as lost on 30.12.1939 by all other sources I have as well, so I think we can be pretty safe BofF is wrong when saying Aubert flow that aircraft, either on the 21st or 22nd.

Aircraft K9867 also creates a problem, since its record card seems to say it was lost on the 23rd and not 21st (or even 22nd)

I think that Peter (in some other context) said he had relied and checked upon all the ORB available. I can't remember if he also said he counter balanced his details with what had been checked on the record cards or not, but hopefully he gets around reading this and makes his own comments.

You also have to remember this was a very tough period for the British. They were basically on the verge of loosing the war and record keeping was probably one of the least promoted aspects they were facing, so there is bound to be many official discrepancies around.

Cheers
Stig

PS: Yes indeed K9957 could be a good candidate since it is recorded as missing on the 21st.

[Faenor]

Hi Stig,

yes, this is interesting topic, same like Hawker Hurricanes during same period (start WWII to Battle of Britain).

Plane K9867 ZP-J was lost 23.5.1940 - S/Ldr. F.L.White forced-landed at Calais-Marck. During few hours was rescued by pilots of 54. Sq with Miles Magister covered by 2 pilots.

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/as-leathart.htm - there is wrong date
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/AllenJL.htm

In this link and info about S/Ldr. White, there is photo of pilots 74.Sq - some of them was shot-down during Dynamo operation and some of later.
http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/WhiteFL.htm

From my view, in the excellent book Battle of France Then and Now, there is just the typo - wrongly K9977 and right one is K9957

But - maybe I´m wrong :-) I´m just amateur in this part of history :-)

Faenor

[Bertrand H]

Hi

If the ZPJ could have been the K9867 the photo of this a/c is not taken at Calais-Marck

The airfield is absolutely flat flat flat

The hill behind looks better close to Berk-sur-Mer

Bertrand

[Kaiyan]

Hi, Here is another that force landed at about that time ...

* F/O 'Sammy' Hoare's P9321. Hoare force landed near Calais-Marck on 23.5.40. He returned to British lines, then caught a boat and rejoined his squadron.

when i have sorted the list I'll post it here.

[Faenor]

Hi all,

there is a list of 74. SQ lost during May 1940 from my archive:
Area Year Month Day Type Version Serial number Mark Squadron Rank Name Name
BoF 1940 May 21 Spitfire Mk. I K9957 ZPoQ 74 P/O R.D. Aubert
BoF 1940 May 23 Spitfire Mk. I K9867 ZPoJ 74 S/Ldr. F.L. White
BoF 1940 May 23 Spitfire Mk. I P9441 74 F/O V.G.I.D Byrne
BoF 1940 May 24 Spitfire Mk. I K9992 74 F/Lt. W.P.F. Treacy
BoF 1940 May 24 Spitfire Mk. I N3243 74 P/O R.D. Aubert
BoF 1940 May 24 Spitfire Mk. I P9321 74 F/O D.S. Hoare
BoF 1940 May 24 Spitfire Mk. I K9952 74 Sgt. E.A. Mould
BoF 1940 May 27 Spitfire Mk. I K9875 ZPoZ 74 F/Lt. W.P.F. Treacy
BoF 1940 May 27 Spitfire Mk. I L1084 74 P/O P.C.F. Stevenson

We know about 2 Spitfires with code ZP from 74 Squadron:
ZPoQ - K9957 ZPoQ 74 P/O R.D. Aubert
ZPoJ - K9867 ZPoJ 74 S/Ldr. F.L. White

Both plane are from initial serie of production and have different radio mast then other series - so these photos are of K9957 and K9867, because:
K9952 74 Sgt. E.A. Mould - pilot baled out
K9992 74 F/Lt. W.P.F. Treacy - pilot baled out
K9875 ZPoZ 74 F/Lt. W.P.F. Treacy - pilot belly-landed near Gravelines, only this one is possibility to match to photo of Spitfire ZPoQ.

Spitfire ZPoJ look, like the the technicians check the machine - same like info about lost with S/Ldr. White - for repairing this machine was sent 2 technicians.

From my perspective, these 2 photos are "strange":
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gall...ire-mk-i-nose/
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gall...spitfire-mk-i/

From my perspective, its not ZDoA - compare the nose and red line
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gall...spitfire-mk-i/

And Its not AZoH - no bottom in black
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gall...herbourg-1940/

Maybe of P9321 74 F/O D.S. Hoare, which force landed too?

Faenor

[Stig Jarlevik]

Faenor

One problem with your list. From where do you get P/O Fox being lost in N3243 on the 24th?

All my sources state it was P/O Aubert who again drew the short stick and was killed that day.

B Rgds
Stig