B-24 shot down by Me-262 Photo!

[Rob Romero]

There is a unique action shot of a B-24 being shot down by R4M rockets fired by Me-262 –anyone know who the Me-262 pilot was?

B-24M (44-50838) 448BG/714Sq Lt. Mains 9KIA/1POW R4M Rockets/Me-262 Ludwigslust/Gr. 4 Apr 45
http://mighty8thaf.preller.us/gallery/446thBG/WWII_ETO_448th_BG_Lt_Mains_B_24?full=1

Also, can anyone post any other links to Me-262 combat photos?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

[Nokose]

Six Me-262 of the 9./JG 7 fired 144 rockets at the 8th Air Force over Rathenow for first action with the R4M. Oberfaehnrich Walter Windisch was one of the pilots.

[Modeldad]

What is the source for verification of that picture and the event itself?

[Rob Romero]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/photos/gallery_006/page_06.htm

At the following site, look under MACR 13730
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/1944_4.html

[Dick Powers]

To me, this photo always seemed to cry “fake” – too perfectly framed, just blurry enough so that the details can’t be seen. But…
Max Hastings, in “Armageddon, the Battle for Germany, 1944-1945” identifies the photographer, Harold Dorfman, a navigator in the 448th bomb group. Footnotes to the paragraphs discussing Dorfman’s service are footnoted “AI –author interview”. This photo is included in the book, although no details are given and Dorfman;s section only mentions that he was a “passionate amateur photographer and snatched some remarkable images from their cockpit….”

So, it looks like it is a real photo.

[SMF144]

Photo shows up on page 224 of Roger Freeman's piece "The Might Eighth - A History of the U.S. 8th Army Air Force"...and the caption states the following:

Me262s reached Liberators of 20th Wing as they made for jet airfield targets on 4 April 1945. Three 448th BG aircraft were lost. This one was torn completely in half. - (USAF)

Stephen

[DCFoster]

My late uncle Paul B. Davis served in the Mighty 8th, 448th BG, 715th Squadron as the crew chief, engineer, and top turret gunner on Lt. Whetsell’s crew; the B-24 Wazzle Dazzle.

His photo album is posted at the following link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/21734563@N04/

Lt. Mains photo and close-up set is here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21734563@N04/sets/72157603453115241/detail/


When Paul Davis returned to the states in 1945 he had in his possession two photo’s of Lt. Mains B-24 going down with a severed tail. One photo was small and the other was an 8”x10”. The large photo is scanned in with several high resolution close ups on the above link. Under high resolution it appears the B-24 took multiple hits; in a right engine, right rear wing, and between the wing and tail sections. Of particular interest is a 19,000 dpi close up of the top turret.

It seems several men from the 448th came out of Seething, UK with prints of the same photo from the original negative. Max Hastings identifies Navigator Harold Dorfman as the photographer. An internet search found a “Harold Dorfman”, retired from the USAF. He served in the 448th BG and is still living in Flushing, NY. I called him a few weeks ago and left a message (no return call). As for any question of the validity of the photo I can personally vouch that the two prints are un-retouched since the summer of 1945. And if any touching up took place before that time, it would show up in the high resolution scans.

With the new scans; how many hits did the B-24 take other than the apparent one?
Who was the Pilot of the ME 262?
Did Lt. Dorfman take the photo?
How did so many men get copies of it in Seething?

Thank You

David Foster

[Mark Steinitz]

There appear to be two candidates for shooting down the B-24 (44-50838) shown in the picture in this thread. According to Theo Boiten and Martin Bowman in Battles with the Luftwaffe: The Bomber Campaign Against Germany, 1942-45 (2001), p. 221, former JG 54 experte Lt. Rudi Rademacher shot it down. In their book The Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), p. 223, authors John Foreman and S.E.Harvey say the victor is believed to be another III./JG 7 pilot, Lt. Fritz Mueller.

Though at odds on who downed the plane in the picture, both sources agree that Rademacher and Mueller were the only III./JG 7 pilots who brought down Liberators that day and that they both used R4M rockets.

Boiten and Bowman say that Mueller brought down "Trouble N Mind," also of the 448 BG. I note that the book by Foreman and Harvey (p. 222) contains a fairly detailed account of Mueller's attack that says he saw six men bail out of the Liberator he attacked. Boiten and Bowman say that six men parachuted from "Trouble N Mind," not 44-50838, which had only one survivor.

[DCFoster]

This evening in a telephone conversation with Lt. Col. (Ret.) Harold Dorfman USAF he commented on the photograph that is the subject of this discussion thread. At that time in 8th, then Navigator Lt. Harold Dorfman was requested by a pilot to fly a mission in place of another Navigator who was nervous due to it being his 35th and final mission. Since the other navigator was a good friend of his he agreed on the condition he would not replace him, but would fly with him to ensure he did his duties correctly. Thus and I quote he was not “officially on the plane” as a member of that crew and even though it was his 26th mission, it did not count. He still recalls the Me 262 flying into the formation and the mission details are noted in his diary from the 448th. He noted in his diary that all the crew members were lost and didn’t know one survived until today. He did take his camera along and took the photograph; http://www.flickr.com/photos/21734563@N04/sets/72157603453115241/detail/
This is one of several combat photos he took during his tenure with the 448th.

Lt. Dorfman was an avid photographer before and during the WWII. Not being allowed to bring a camera to England he asked for advice in New York where to purchase a camera in London. He was able to take a roll of film to England. Once there he was able to get out of uniform and go to a camera shop and ask if they had a camera that would fit the film. At that time Lt. Dorfman was the top navigator in the 8th and word got out to Col. Charles Westover he was taking pictures while flying missions. Col. Westover was impressed with the photographs but due to regulations personal cameras were not permitted on missions, so Lt. Dorfman was made an official photographer with a military issued camera. However it became difficult to take photos and navigate at the same time, so he returned to being a navigator and Col. Westover unofficially allowed him to take photos with his old camera or what camera he was able to trade for in the London Shop. It was fantastic conversation that I'll never forget, even though he barley touched on his experiences during the war.

All of his photos and diary (book) are copyrighted. However copies were donated to the 8th Air Force Museum.

Thanks for all the help.

David Foster

[Uncle Charley]

It appears from the information I have that my Uncle (Charles H. Daman) was a crew member on the B-24 in the photograph. I am interested in any info concerning that event.

Keith Daman