LAGOON versus JIM CROW Operations

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello,
Would like some help to understand the differences between the two kind of operations: Lagoon ( apparently shipping reconaissance over the Netherlands or Holland ) and JIM CROW ( also ship reconaissance ).
That really puzzles me for a while and I did not find material that clearly establish a difference between the two types of missions.
Adriano

[Amrit1]

According to The Crucible of War by Greenhous et all, Lagoons were recons along the Dutch coast, whilst Jim Crows were recons and opportunistic ships against shipping in the Adriatic. But other sources seem to imply the same as you found, both recons in the region of Holland/Channel.

A

[Hans Nauta]

Hello Adriano and Amrit,

As I've filed several Lagoon and Jom Crow missions over my research area NW Holland I can add that in 1943 Lagoon and in 1944 Jim Crow was used as code name for recces off the Dutch coast. In 1943 mainly RAF Mustangs of the former Aircraft Co operation Command carried out these tasks. Perhaps this code name changed after the 2nd TAF was formed?

Best regards,
Hans Nauta

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Hans Nauta and Amritt1,
I´ve seen mentions of JIM CROW missions back in 1941 ( 421 Flight and later 91 Squadron ); BUT no mention of LAGOON missions so far.
Could you point me an example of a Lagoon mission, is possible...a date, something to start a research about this kind of activity?
Many thanks
Adriano

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Adriano,

I've filed the next Lagoon operations:

15.03.43 56 Sqdn
20.03.43 56 Sqdn
02.04.43 2 Sqdn
05.05.43 167 Sqdn
14.05.43 613 Sqdn
06.07.43 4 Sqdn
08.07.43 4 Sqdn
12.07.43 4 Sqdn
06.08.43 611 Sqdn


And Jim Crow operations:

17.08.43 613 Sqdn
07.09.43 613 Sqdn
15.09.44 229 Sqdn
01.11.44 602 Sqdn
03.11.44 602 Sqdn
13.11.44 453 Sqdn
21.02.45 602 Sqdn

Of course far more Lagoons and Jim Crows have been flown, this is only my selection.

I've checked the 2nd TAF Daily Log but no mentioning of Lagoons nor Jim Crows so far. This type of operations was perhaps only flown by Fighter Command units.

Good luck!
Hans Nauta

[timothy]

No help at all, but thought a bit of local colour might be acceptable?

Lagoons? Not in my day - went to India in '43 so missed that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...4/RAF2/jim.jpg

= Tim

PS I DO apologise to the ? French fishermen - but why armed?

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Timothy!
Many thanks for your logbook entries! REALLY FANTASTIC! May I ask you in which Squadron you flew?
HANS, I do have much more data about the JIM CROWS, but as I said NONE about Lagoons. Will try to post here for you while at home...PLEASE do wait a while, ok? I will promiss to answer...
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner

[timothy]

Adriano - 1940 (&'42) No1 - 1941 No 601 (the time of the log).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/sqns.jpg

= Tim

[Adriano Baumgartner]

TIM,
Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences! May I ask you, if it did not offend you, of course, what were the difficulties of the JIM CROW missions? You do mention that an armed trawler was sunk, and we do know now, that the Kriegsmarine often has civlian ships equipped with radios and guns patrolling the Ocean ( disguised ).
Just read the book "Decima Flottiglia Mas" from J Valerio Borghese, an Italian submarine commander who do mention this kind of disguise being used by the Italian Navy in the Mediterranean.
From my humble civilian ( pilot also ) point of view, the major difficulty would be flying over the "drink" ( particularly during the winter period ) with a liquid-cooled engine ( a single one! ).
I found that you had fought with 601 ( Hurricanes IIc ) by checking F/L George Frederick Gregory ( RAFO 72259 ) whom you do mention on your logbook. Sorry for his and a lot of other young boys losses...very sad indeed that so many did not came back.
Do you remember or flew with MacLachlan or Brooker? Could you post here, if this will not disturb you your successes ( claims )?
By the way, I found re-reading some material the difference between LAGOON and JIM CROW missions:
LAGOON : Ship strike ( by Fighter Command )
JIM CROW: Ship recon ( with apparently a possibility if tactics permit to attack )
Two examples:

7. January 1941 ( Apparently the very first JIM CROW mission by Fighter Command )

RAF 11 Group: (Jim Crow) Shipping-Recco.

RAF 11 Gp. 421 Flt. 2 Spitfire I 12.00-12.10 Ship-Recco. 0 - 0 - 1 Ju 88 No casualty Visual: S. Dover

Claim 07.01.41 F/Lt. B. Drake 11 Group 421 Flt. 0 - 0 - ½ Ju 88 12.05 ca: N. Hawkinge-S. Cap Gris Nez
Claim 07.01.41 P/O J.J. O'Meara 11 Group 421 Flt. 0 - 0 - ½ Ju 88 12.05 ca: N. Hawkinge-S. Cap Gris Nez

RAF 11 Gp. 421 Flt. 2 Spitfire I 14.40 hrs. Ship-Recco. 0 - 0 - 1 Ju 88 No casualty Visual: S. Hawkinge

Claim 07.01.41 F/Lt. B. Drake 11 Group 421 Flt. 0 - 0 - 1 Ju 88 14.40: S. Dover-Cap Gris Nez

5. May 1943
RAF 12 Group Anti-shipping Strike (Lagoon)
RAF 12 Gp. 167 Sqn. 2 Spitfire LR.Vb 09.55-11.55 Lagoon 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 1 Cat.Em Flak Ijmuiden
Cat.Em 05.05.43 P/O K. Papousek: KIA 12 Group 167 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: BM477 R Flak: off The Hook

I do thank you all who helped on this thread.
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner
PS: I do appologize for not reading my sources accordingly...I passed over the information without seeing it.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

However, it is not very clear to me WHY the RAF would only send two Spitfires LRVb to a shipping strike mission, if they could send the whole Squadron! As we can see from the 5th May 1943 entry, one did not come back!
I did not understand this kind of policy...by that time Coastal Command was executing huge Strikes with a dozen or plus Beaufighters and Mosquitos armed with rockets and multiple guns or even torpedos ( Torbeaus ); a very different kind of approach to the same task: sink enemy shipping.
Yours ( still puzzled )
Adriano