F-86 vs MiG 15, the claims...

[Daniel Nole]

Hi: Very interesant the theme. I have also investigate a lot about many of the claims of both sides in the Korean War and certainly is a very open theme. Sometimes also there are many differences in the version published.
A typical confussión with the numbers is the day June 17, 1951.

If you consult Korwald for F-86s losses this day, there are nothing but if you consult other publications you find:

49-1281 (4th FIG, 334th FIS) Heavy damaged by MiG.Written off Jun 25, 1951.(F-86A-5)
49-1334 (335th FIS) destroyed on ground by Bedcheck Charlie Jun 17, 1951 at Suwon.(F-86A-5)
49-1335 (335th FIS 4th FIW)shot down by MiGs Jun 17, 1951.(F-86A-5)

The 49-334 was destroyed early in the morning with grenadas by one Po-2 in Suwon, the 49-335 was shot down by Lev K. Shchukin of 17 IAP some hours after, and the 49-1281(LtCol Eagleston) was heavy damaged by Sergei Kramarenko of 176th GIAP and write off the 25th of the same month.

The confussion about the 49-1334 and 49-1335 in a constant in many publications.Already the published photos are not a good help to clear the id of the destroyed F-86 at Suwon.

The second "official" F-86 loss in combat with MiGs was the 49-1307 the June 18, 1951 but there are before this date some curious events with F-86 and MiGs.

The first one was the Apr 3, 1951. This day was loss the the 49-1173 of Maj Ronald D. Shirlaw. The official version say: "crashed behind enemy lines due to fuel exhaustion " .Korwall speak of:" Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion, bellied in on river bank 10 mi NW of Kaesong".

And what is the version the V-VS?

"A MiG-15 pilot of the 176th GIAP, Kapetan Ivan Yablokov,
caught by surprise the F-86A BuNo.49-1173 flown by Major Ronald D. Shirlaw, and riddled the fuel tanks and the fuel
boost with 23 mm shells. Shirlaw managed to belly land his crippled Sabre over NK territory, only to become a POW."

Iam near certain , this plane can be counted as a victory for the MiGs but is not so in the "official version".

As example If you count this F-86 and the two others of the Jun 17 , there are now 3 F-86s more "in credit" for the MiGs.

There are so many myths and historic deformations ; a typical example is the combat of the Dec 22, 1950.

In a early combat was shot down the F-86A-5 49-1176, the first one loss in Korea and in the second combat of the day the 4th FIW engaged the MiGs of the 177th IAP.
The 4th FIW claims were for six MiGs ; actually the losses were 2 MiGs ,pilots Zub(Wounded) and Barsegyan(KIA).
The MiG of St Li V. F. Deynegi was slight damaged with five 12.7mm and repaired.

Score of the day USAF 2, V-VS 1. And not : USAF 6 , V-VS 1.

The June 1953 was a great month for the F-86. "Officially" 77 MiGs were claimed as destroyed with the only loss of one F-86. The V-VS and PLAAF versions confirme in part the USAF version:

The V-VS losses were 24 MiGs and the PLAAF loss 43, with a total of 67 MiG destroyed.
Worst day, and the record in the Korean war was the Jun 30, 1953 with 16 MiGs destroyed(14 PLAAF and 2 V-VS).

In the other side the V-VS claims were for 36 F-86s , actually, after investigation of all claims and losses, only 3 of the F-86s were definitively destroyed by the MiGs this month.

Daniel Nole

[Daniel Nole]

Already in theme , I search information about the circunstances of the loss of this F-86s:

48-305 damaged by MiG.(F-86A-5)
49-1318 - lost to enemy action(F-86A-5)
50-587 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-1)
50-622 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-1)
50-666 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-5)
50-672 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-5)
51-2768 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-2770 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-2792 - lost to enemy action(F-86E-10)
51-12942 -lost to enemy action(F-86F-10)
52-4313 - lost to enemy action(F-86F-30)

The F-86A-5 49-318 was used for the photo sessions with James Jabara after the combat of May 20, 1951(Actually this day he had used the 49-1319). After that, no more informations are available about the loss of this plane.

The 49-1319 in the other side was shot down by Pepelyayev the Oct 6, 1951, recovered, was transported near Moscow for study and investigation. The Sirena warning device installed in the MiGs after 1952 was part of the results of this investigation. Also works with the G suits systems but no utilised in the MiG-15.

Thanks

Daniel Nole

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Daniel Nole

Hi: Very interesant the theme.

1. The first one was the Apr 3, 1951. This day was loss the the 49-1173 of Maj Ronald D. Shirlaw. The official version say: "crashed behind enemy lines due to fuel exhaustion " .Korwall speak of:" Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion, bellied in on river bank 10 mi NW of Kaesong".

And what is the version the V-VS?

"A MiG-15 pilot of the 176th GIAP, Kapetan Ivan Yablokov,
caught by surprise the F-86A BuNo.49-1173 flown by Major Ronald D. Shirlaw, and riddled the fuel tanks and the fuel
boost with 23 mm shells. Shirlaw managed to belly land his crippled Sabre over NK territory, only to become a POW."

Iam near certain , this plane can be counted as a victory for the MiGs but is not so in the "official version".

2. The F-86A-5 49-318 was used for the photo sessions with James Jabara after the combat of May 20, 1951(Actually this day he had used the 49-1319). After that, no more informations are available about the loss of this plane.

Hi Daniel, I welcome someone new interested in this topic which so fascinates me. May I make minor comments about just the two points above

1. The problem shown by the source you quote is what I might call the 'Korwald feedback effect'. Some researchers have in recent years read Korwald as well as published accounts from Russia, but then the info in Korwald kind of 'feeds back' into the Russian accounts to imply a neat correlation of facts from each side that wasn't really there. For example, the quote you gave tends to imply that the Soviets later found Shirlaw's plane to have been riddled by cannon fire causing a fuel problem, but there's actually no evidence of that. The Soviets didn't do their own wreck surveys at that time, and their verification comment for this downing is very vague, in fact it says the a/c crashed into the water and the fate of the pilot was unknown, though Shirlaw obviously turned up in the hands of their allies eventually, spent the war as prisoner and was released in 1953.

The part about "riddled fuel tanks" comes from the assumption or imagination of the writer of the website you quoted, putting together the Korwald entry including a fuel issue with knowledge that a Soviet claim was registered the same day.

Also note that Korwald is not 'the official version' in sense of some publicity release. Those explanations of loss are in almost all cases directly from then-secret records.

As best I can tell from April 3 '51's intelligence summary of the 5th AF, which has details of each flight, Shirlaw's particular flight didn't contact MiG's, though others did, which would explain the Soviet claim. It seems he really did get separated and have a navigation problem, and ran out of fuel. He also said so in his POW de-brief interview after his release in 1953. These were all secret documents at the time. I rate this incident 'probably not MiG' in my database, though I admit it's not 100% certain.

2. 49-1318 was damaged in air combat November 29, 1951. Although a photo dated December 5 seems to shows the damage to be relatively minor, there was a severe parts shortage for F-86A's in Korean in late '51; and 1318 was probably cannabalized for spares, and officially written off January 2, 1952, code M (combat loss). I count this as 'MiG loss/writeoff'. This is one of the legendary 'F-86's that were damaged and never repaired but the USAF didn't count them as losses'...except there are only a handful of such later write offs, and some *were* counted as combat losses.

Joe

[Daniel Nole]

Thanks Joe for the answer and a pleasure to speak with a another passionate with this theme.Very interesant the history of the 49-1318. A good day this one for the V-VS, apart the damage of 49-1318 , Pepelyayev had also heavy damaged the 48-301, one of de A-5 of the first early series.This second one was also written off.
Losses for the V-VS this Nov 29, 1951 was one MiG downed by Vernon L. Wright of the 336th FIS.

After the point about the loss of the 49-1173 of Maj Shirlaw, that mean no F-86 were losses in combat with MiGs between Nov 22, 1950 and June 18, 1951 with the loss of 49-1307 of Capt William D. Crone of the 334th FIS? "Officially" the 49-1307 was the second F-86 loss in combat with MiGs.
Maybe the only "light"exception between this two dates was the damage with a hit of 37mm at the rudder of the 49-1227 the Apr 18, 1951 but this plane returned to Suwon. After my documentation was again damaged the Sept 13 of the same year.(A lucky F-86 this one after so a such hit).

I have finded also in the Korwald a curious event, but his one no with F-86 but with F9F Panthers of the USMC.
After the information the tragic loss of a complete formation of six Panthers with his pilots(All MIA) of the VMF-115, MAG-33 the Sep 10, 1952.Korwald speak of "Bad wx diversion from K-3 to K-2 after combat mission, crashed into Unmun-san 23 nm SE K-2". Maybe a navigational mistake, very bad weather with limited visibility and colission with montanious terrain. Very tragic.

Daniel Nole

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

BTW, may it would be interesting for you? Just now has been edited a new book about Russian aces of Korean war 1950-1953. Looks very serious, and good done. Only in Russian, edition of 750 copies, not so many. Author has spended a lot of time writing it, as it is written.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzyński

See more:
http://aerospaceproject.ru/book/46.html

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[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Nole

The V-VS losses were 24 MiGs and the PLAAF loss 43, with a total of 67 MiG destroyed.
Worst day, and the record in the Korean war was the Jun 30, 1953 with 16 MiGs destroyed(14 PLAAF and 2 V-VS).

Hi,

What is your source for PLAAF losses? According to "Red Devils over Korean Sky" by I Seidov, PLAAF losses for June 53 were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.

Regards,
Szymon

[Daniel Nole]

Originally Posted by Gizmo

Hi,

What is your source for PLAAF losses? According to "Red Devils over Korean Sky" by I Seidov, PLAAF losses for June 53 were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.

Regards,
Szymon

Well is a combination of differente sources, but the mentioned 11 PLAAF only losses for the whole month sound really too optimistic and that mean also a hipotetic a lot of overclaims by the USAF. Some 32 overclaims?
Actually this numbers are revised because the official one published some year before and still in many publications were biggest and mentioned 77 MiGs shot down this month!

After USAF claims, PLAAF MiGs were engaged the:

Jun 5 ,1953 (six MiGs shot down , a double for Vermont Garrison)

Jun 7 , 1953(three MiGs, included one for future astronaute Edwin Aldrin)

Jun 10, 1953(two MiGs for James Jabara)

Jun 18, 1953(three MiGs for Ralph Parr, Loonie Moore and Jabara)

Jun 24, 1953(eight MiGs , a double for Foster L. Smith and another for Vermont Garrison)

Jun 26, 1953(two MiGs for Thomas H. McQuade and Vermont Garrison)

Jun 29,1953(five MiGs for Nott, Howell, Palmer and Jensen all 51th FIW and John Granville-White of the RAF but assigned in the 51th FIW)

Jun 30, 1953(14 MiGs divided in: 12 for the 4th FIW and 2 for the 51th FIW)The two V-VS MIGs shot down this day were credited one to the 4th FIW and the other for a pilot of the RCAF assigned to the 51th FIW)

Regards

Daniel Nole