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  #21  
Old 2nd May 2010, 02:05
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

Denes,

Thanks for your vote of confidence. We are striving in every way to detail BOTH sides of the story on the PC in as great a detail as a very thorough investigation of all the known sources will allow. We've made huge progress, including spending a great deal of time and effort in translating both German and Polish sources into English. Our researchers consider the books by Marius as indispensable reference sources on the German side. He is one of the real pioneers in the field for the Polish Campaign and our work will significantly build on his efforts.

Regards,



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  #22  
Old 3rd May 2010, 13:42
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

"If the facts are against us, so much the worse for the facts," Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, in a nutshell the Great Lenin - an ordinary manipulator of the masses.



1st Mister Marius - no clear answer to the specific facts, only vaguely write about something else.

2nd I do not understand your persistence in concealing or disregard the obvious facts, like Lenin?

3rd Nobody putting false argument to draw real conclusions.

4th Polish military authorities and the chief has left the Polish State 17-18 September 1939 The Polish fighters remained secluded headquarters, has already broken the Polish armies, which have had no contact with each other. In Warsaw, there were no major state authorities, they fled in panic from the city ever enormous 5-6 September 1939, at the news of the approach of the Germans to the capital. Warsaw, 20 September 1939 was not a command center for the country before the German invasion.

5th If the Luftwaffe led to a large extent, air operations against military targets, that made it until 22 September 1939 attacks in this period, concentrations of the Polish army, roads, bridges, airports, trains, areas of troop concentrations, and by the way sometimes killed, wounded and civilians, who escaped.


6th Adolf Hitler arrived in Warsaw on September 22, 1939. Just this fact Marius E. did not write nothing at all? It is as if half of the highest council of war and aerial military commanders had no relevance to the conduct of air warfare in Poland. Then held a meeting of chief commander of ground troops and air. Its purpose was to determine the fastest and the "cheapest" way to end the campaign in Poland. Fuhrer had ordered troops land, the Luftwaffe, that all available means, as soon as possible to break the enemy's resistance. The main task was the elimination of the resistance of Polish troops gathered between Modlin and Warsaw. Adolf H. and his high staff watched from the outskirts of the capital of the artillery and air attack on Warsaw on September 25. Personally oversaw the implementation of the ballot a few days earlier orders.

In your books and there is no information about this fact? In total, correct, when Adolf H. "never belonged to the Luftwaffe and was not subject to Herman G." - it is simple.

7th That day (22 IX), General Freiherr von Richthofen Wolfrm presented "Luftangriffe der Planung auf Warschau". Proposed in this plan by the Luftwaffe for air support of land forces besieging Warsaw. Then outlined a plan to use hundreds of bombers, which by means of high explosive and incendiary bombs were to break the will of the resistance forces and the civilian population concentrated in Warsaw. After 20 September 1939 in Warsaw, there were about 1.25 million civilians and about 110,000 soldiers.

8th Luftwaffe plan for a big terrorist attack on Warsaw with high explosive and incendiary bombs, began to implement the September 24, 1939, the main direction of air strikes was the west, the main part of town. He became the center of the city buildings on the site located on the left bank of the Vistula lived then about one million civilians.
September 24 Luftwaffe threw on Warsaw least 66 tons of bombs from Ju 87s.
The next day, intensified aerial attack. Their primary objective was the town center district, mainly areas: Śródmieście, Wola, Mokotów, Żoliborz. It was a densely built-up area of civilian buildings. The Germans carried out terrorist attacks, air waves from morning to evening.

Luftwaffe sought to attack 25 Sep 1939 at least 94 bombers Do 17 Z, E (Stab, I, II, III / KG 77). The next units consisted of eight dive bombers Gruppe (Ju 87 B), plus a Gruppe Hs 123s (35 Hs 123s). For the discharge of incendiary bombs were used for transport Ju 52s - 47.

9th Mister Marius E. I did not understand why you have dumped (intentionally or not) by about 33% of the striking force grouping Wolfrm Freiherr von Richthofen (F.F. z.b.V) aimed to strike at Warsaw, 25 September 1939.
24 September, as you give, it was reinforced with three Gruppe Ju 87 Luftflotte 1 an attack on Warsaw the next day. In Vol III, p. 214, you had given the number 200 aircraft belonging to the F.F. z.b.V.

However, a little farther you give all the units participating in the Ju 87s terrorist attack on Warsaw on September 25. According to your data, that attacked the capital of eight Gruppe (Wings) of Ju 87s (each numbered from 25 to 35 Ju 87).

This means that the attacks on Warsaw, attended by approximately 250-265 Ju 87 plus one Gruppe Hs 123 (35 Hs 123), together about 300 dive bombers and assault. Connect the number of German aircraft used against Warsaw 25 September 1939 is approximately 430-450 bombers: 94 Do 17, 250-265 Ju 87, 35 Hs 123 and 47 Ju 52.

Germans used the first time in the history of air warfare techniques of carpet bombing against the civilian heart of the enemy, the besieged city. To strengthen the air strikes were used mixed cargo of high explosive and incendiary. From morning to evening, Sept. 25 Germans dropped on Warsaw 486 tons of high explosive and 72 tons of incendiary bombs during the 1176 flights.
With this technique they were able to raid to destroy and burn thousands of civilian buildings in Warsaw (30-50% of the data indicative of civil buildings of the city) to kill approximately 10,000 civilians and the next tens of thousands wounded.

10th Terrorist operation of the Luftwaffe 24-25 September 1939 enjoyed an excellent effect. The town burned in numerous places, urban water supply systems were destroyed, water supply in many parts of destroyed, urban plant was seriously damaged, in the city was cut off supplies of electricity. In this situation it was impossible to extinguish fires. Thousands of buildings lay in ruins. Polish Defence Command terrified scale destruction of the German attack began to think about the rapid end of the fighting and surrender of the city.

11th I do not understand why you (Mister Marius Emmerling) the permanently falsified the date of the capitulation of Warsaw? In your three books (from 2002 to 2006) you had given the erroneous date of 27 September 1939. The actual date of the capitulation of Warsaw is 28 September 1939.


Conclusions
Mister Marius Emmerling, in his books have a tendency to manipulate, falsification of data. When the facts are up against he to simply delete them, or manipulating. Sometimes you that give false data. This may mean that the conscious lying in his books to bend historical truth to a personal vision of "truth" - just "straighten bananas."

This information does not change the fact, that as a German historian have done huge work to describe a selective and subjective history of the Luftwaffe over the Polish. When uncomfortable for themselves the materials allowed to make untrue and overt manipulation.
Unconsciously imitating in this way the Great Lenin's instructions.

Sincerely,

Miroslaw Wawrzyński
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  #23  
Old 3rd May 2010, 15:07
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

What's the sense of this thread?

The main title was "Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939" --- maybe would be an better title "the personal wars of Mirek Wawrzynski". Every time when an thread of Polish campaign was opened then here was fought an "Polish Civil War" --- and at first the truth died like in every war.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

P.S.: Poland itself doesn't know :-) when the capitulation of Warsaw was!
From the Polish website encyklopedia.interia.pl: "... Lubelszczyźnie; 27 IX kapitulacja Warszawy, 29 IX - Modlina, 2 X - Helu..."

Last edited by Rasmussen; 3rd May 2010 at 18:02.
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  #24  
Old 3rd May 2010, 18:42
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

Mister Mirek Wawrzynski,
I don`t understand what problems you have.

HTML Code:
In Vol III, p. 214, you had given the number 200 aircraft belonging to the F.F. z.b.V. 
If you are looking for F.F. z.b.V. Ju 87 numbers, so look a few pages before (Stukaflieger, 196-197). You have there the strength for 21.9.1939.: 199 Ju 87 & 37 Hs 123.

And if you have problems with reading and understanding Polish text, so look to the page where you found so much "manipulated" information. In the first sentence (page 214) you will find 1176 sorties against Warsaw with 486 t & 72 t incendiary bombs.
This is exactly what you wrote in your post without giving the source (a manipulation ?!).

HTML Code:
From morning to evening, Sept. 25 Germans dropped on Warsaw 486 tons of high explosive and 72 tons of incendiary bombs during the 1176 flights.
It seems we all are just idiots, because we don`t believe the communistic propaganda as much as you.

Regards,

P.S.
By the way, this sentence

HTML Code:
"Luftangriffe der Planung auf Warschau"
is completely false German language. Mirek`s manipulation?
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  #25  
Old 3rd May 2010, 20:47
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

HTML Code:
11th I do not understand why you (Mister Marius Emmerling) the permanently falsified the date of the capitulation of Warsaw? In your three books (from 2002 to 2006) you had given the erroneous date of 27 September 1939. The actual date of the capitulation of Warsaw is 28 September 1939.
HTML Code:
P.S.: Poland itself doesn't know :-) when the capitulation of Warsaw was! 
        From the Polish website encyklopedia.interia.pl: "... Lubelszczyźnie; 27 IX kapitulacja Warszawy, 29 IX - Modlina, 2 X - Helu..."

Meldung A.O.K.8 (Hptm.Sulzberger)
Übergabeverhandlungen Warschau vollzogen, offizielle Waffenruhe ab 14.00 Uhr am 27.9.39. (Nur für Warschau nicht für Modlin).

Hope this helps.
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  #26  
Old 4th May 2010, 14:40
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Perssonel LW's losses over Poland IX 1939?

Marisu be so kind and I translate the German text of the material that you posted. I am being a Pole, do not speak German so perfectly, so I'm interested in your translation. I want to avoid the misunderstandings of language.

Quote:
Meldung A.O.K.8 (Hptm.Sulzberger)
Übergabeverhandlungen Warschau vollzogen, offizielle Waffenruhe ab 14.00 Uhr am 27.9.39. (Nur für Warschau nicht für Modlin).
Regards,
Mirosław Wawrzyński
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