Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 1st June 2005, 08:32
Jon Jon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England
Posts: 374
Jon
Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

PLEASE FIND BELOW A REQUEST I HAVE RECIEVED FROM A FRIEND.
I AM SURE SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM WILL BE ABLE TO HELP?


Pilot P/O Keith Gillman. Keith was posted missing in action after combat
over the English Channel on 25 August 1940. And there are many myths and
mis-information about him! This includes the official version that he was
shot down - I have never believed that he was.

I need to look into the claims of Helmut Wick for that afternoon, I think he
claimed two RAF aircraft, one of which was a Hurricane, in the Portland area
around late afternoon. I believe one of these was a Hurricane (please
correct me if I am wrong). What I need to establish is who the pilots of
those two RAF casualties were (thus probably eliminating Keith Gillman from
the equation). Do you happen to know?

This is all as a result of some information I received recently which,
although seemingly not making too much sense, nevertheless I have to check
out. Finding out who those two British aircraft belonged to that Wick
claimed is thus essential!

I have looked on various websites, etc, for details of Wick's claims, and of
course 'BoB - Then and Now', etc, but with no luck.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 1st June 2005, 09:19
robert robert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,890
robert is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Hi Jon,

you are writing about P/O K.R. Gillman from 32 RAF? If yes he was most probably shot down in Dover area by I/JG26 fighters (probably Lt.Ludwig Hafer). Wick (and many others pilots) claimed 2 victories in Portland area (18`25 one Hurricane, 18`30 one Spitfire) but it was against 152 and 213 RAF squadrons.

Regards

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 1st June 2005, 14:50
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

All known claims on this day (source: Tony Wood's claimlist):

25.08.40 Maj. Wolfgang Schellmann: 9 Stab/JG 2 Spitfire £ Warmwell 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1B



25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 19 3./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.25 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-150B

25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 20 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ Portland 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-151B

25.08.40 Fw. Fritz Stritzel: 5 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ S.W. Wareham: 5.500 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-152



25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz: 3 5./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B

25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Hahn: 6 4./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-Add:



25.08.40 Oblt. Carl-Hans Röders: 4 9./JG 2 Hurricane £ Weymouth 18.34 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-33

25.08.40 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Metz: 3 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-36

25.08.40 Fw. Karl Ebert: n.b. 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-nil



25.08.40 Maj. Adolf Galland: 22 Stab/JG 26 Spitfire £ Dungeness-Folkestone: 3.000 m. 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1



25.08.40 Ltn. Ludwig Hafer: 2 Stab I./JG 26 Hurricane £ W. Folkestone: 2.500 m. 19.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-41

25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 8 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Kanal-über See 19.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B

25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 9 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Dover-Calais: 3.000 m. 19.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-43

25.08.40 Oblt. Kurt Ruppert: 4 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ südlich Calais 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-44B



25.08.40 Fw. Konrad Carl: 3 ► 9./JG 26 Spitfire £ - 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-126B

25.08.40 Ltn. Josef Bürschgens: 9 Stab III./JG 26 Hurricane £ Littlestone: 3.500 m. 19.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-127B



25.08.40 Oblt. Karl Fischer: 1 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-122

25.08.40 Fw. Emil Clade: 5 7./JG 27 Spitfire £ westlich Portland 18.42 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-123B

25.08.40 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 13 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-124B



25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 2 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ S.W. Portland 18.26 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-108

25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 1 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südl. Portland: 6.200 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-109B

25.08.40 Hptm. Hans-Karl Mayer: 15 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ W. Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-110

25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Ohly: 4 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-111

25.08.40 Oblt. Gebhard Dittmar: 2 Stab I./JG 53 Hurricane £ N.W. Portland: 5.000 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-112

25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 2 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.200 m. 18.31 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-113

25.08.40 Ltn. Alfred Zeis: 3 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.38 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-114B

25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 3 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland 18.46 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-115B



25.08.40 Fw. Walter Margstein: 2 ► 6./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. S.W. Portland: 4-5.000 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-62

25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Schulze-Blanck: 4 4./JG 53 Spitfire £ - 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-63B



25.08.40 Hptm. Hans von Hahn: 7 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.27 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-132B

25.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Kunert: 8 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-133B

25.08.40 Ltn. Jakob Stoll: 6 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.36 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-134B



25.08.40 Maj. Hannes Trautloft: 6 Stab/JG 54 Spitfire £ Ärmelkanal 20.20 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-1



25.08.40 Hptm. Hubertus von Bonin: 6 Stab I./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-31B

25.08.40 Ltn. Siegfried Graf Matuschka: 1 2./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-32B



25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Scholz: 5 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-77

25.08.40 Fw. Max Clerico: 4 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-78



25.08.40 Fw. Siegfried Göbel (2?) 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.15 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41

25.08.40 Ltn. Karl Helmer (4?) 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.20 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41

25.08.40 Oblt. Ernst-Hartmann v. Schlotheim 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.30 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41


I won't be surprised if other ZG units claimed victories this day but most of ZG units' claims have been "lost" AFAIK.

Given that all airbattles took place in the evening this day, I think any identication of a given claim will always be hypothetical.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28th February 2010, 22:31
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,353
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Wick was not the wonder horse you think. He was leading the claims race when he was killed, however unlike Molders and Galland he was not an honest claimer!

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 1st March 2010, 13:24
Peter Cornwell's Avatar
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,451
Peter Cornwell is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Jon,

You can discount any connection with the claims of WICK and the loss of Keith GILLMAN on August 25, 1940. Both timing and location simply do not relate. If GILLMAN fell to enemy fighters then, as Robert says, JG26 filed the more likely claims.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 1st March 2010, 13:43
timothy's Avatar
timothy timothy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: cotswolds uk
Posts: 206
timothy is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

As something of an aside, I am pleased to have been - so far as research can say - his 18th - helping him on his way. Pleased because he was an Ace!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/wick.jpg

= Tim
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 1st March 2010, 14:02
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 11,193
Chris Goss has a spectacular aura aboutChris Goss has a spectacular aura about
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Tim. I am sure you will have this but if you want, I can send you a photo showing Wick's Bf 109 tail and 'you' marked as 18 on the rudder
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 1st March 2010, 14:04
Peter Cornwell's Avatar
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,451
Peter Cornwell is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Tim,

I presume to speak on behalf of other forum members in saying that we are equally pleased that you survived the encounter and are still around to tell the tale.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 1st March 2010, 16:31
Brian Brian is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Posts: 3,972
Brian is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Hi guys - especially as the experts are present!

On the subject of Helmut Wick, is is correct that he probably shot down a Ju88 in error circa 13 August 1940, and, if so, was this the LG1 aircraft that crashed near Cherbourg?

Cheers
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 1st March 2010, 17:24
Peter Cornwell's Avatar
Peter Cornwell Peter Cornwell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 1,451
Peter Cornwell is on a distinguished road
Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940

Brian,

I have no knowledge of any such claim.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 803 8th July 2023 16:47
German claims and Allied losses May 1940 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 19th May 2010 12:13
Ogr. Paul Lux and August 13. 1940?? cbe2009 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 3rd October 2005 19:37
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25
RAF Bombing Raids over Germany in August 1940 Stebo69 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 20th February 2005 21:35


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net