Grumman Avengers used in Meridian I & II

[Larry]

Seeing Alex's post concerning Avengers of 857 NAS in the Far East reminded me to ask where each crew member sat for Operation Meridian I & II and thereafter in the Pacific. In every reference it says the FAA wanted the observer to sit inside the fuselage, as did the USN and that the FAA also asked for bulged cabin windows when they ordered the type. However for Meridian it seems the FAA had a change of heart and requested the Observer be behind the pilot where he would have a better view.

The design work and instructions showing the necessary mods were carried out around August 1944 by the Naval Air Radio Installation Unit at Christchurch, Hampshire. Over the years I have been in contact with several members of the team involved but apart from the installation of the extra seat, radio and compass behind the pilot they cannot recall whether the Observer could access the seat 'up top' from within the fuselage or whether he had a to choose which to occupy before take off.

Occasionally you will see the Observer behind the pilot in a few photos of Avengers in the Far East but not many, so perhaps not many aircraft were modified in this way.

Any help geatly appreciated

[Alex Smart]

hello larry,

A very good question.

I have thought that ALL of the FAA Squadrons in the 875 range were started in the USA and so did they aquired any aircraft here in the UK at all.

If not then perhaps the best place to ask is the FAA Museum,
I have looked at their Forum but cannot gain access to it when I click the button so as to place a question.

Good luck

Alex

[Mark E Horan]

Larry & Alex;

I have been in many Avengers - a true Grumman Tarpon, and many TBMs of different models. From the TBF-1 on there were four crew positions:

Pilot: Front seat
Observer: Second seat (between pilot and turret)
Gunner: Third (Turret) seat
Bombardier: lower rear fuselage seat

The Bombardier cabin connects to the center (second seat) via a short ladder and tunnel, passing under, and to the side, of the turret seat. Every model I have seen had a seat in each position, and a fold down table in the center seat. My Tarpon flight manual indicates such. On torpedo strike missions, a bombardier was not needed, so he could sit in the ceter seat as an observer OR man the tunnel gun in the bombardier's cabin. On a bombing mission, the bombardier would have to be in the cabin to change anything on the bombs, else he had the same choices as above.

It sounds like initially they wanted the bombardier to be in the fuselage with the tunnel gun but changed to having him sit up top as an extra set of eyes. As long as the turret was posityioned fore and aft, he coul;d quickly go below to man the tunnel gun if the formation was intercepted.

Hope this helps.

Mark E. Horan

[Larry]

Thanks guys for your replies.

With regard to the modifications to FAA Avengers, these were carried out on JZ149 (and possibly another) by the NARIU in order to prepare technical instruction leaflets for aircraft to be modified at bases overseas.

JZ149 was later shipped to Ceylon via HMS Rajah as a pattern aircraft and served with 756 NAS and later 857 NAS but after Meridian.

With regard to access and use of the 2nd seat behind the pilot, if the Observer could always access this from the fuselage then the question I need answering is what was in the 2nd 'cockpit' after the modifications that wasn't there before?

BTW - In FAA Avengers the typical crew consisted of three men, so I wonder where the Observers were sited when the Avengers dive bombed the Pladjoe oil refineries?