Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 17th February 2020, 01:20
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,087
Leo Etgen is on a distinguished road
Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Hi guys

I should mention that some of the information included in Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units by Forsyth, such as that regarding the claims by Leutnant Rudolf Dassow (22 victories, RK, killed in action 25 August 1944) on 1 March 1943 and 9 April 1943, is also given in A History of the Mediterranean Air War, 1940 - 1945, Volume 3 by Shores (pages 368 and 462). The first victory is listed as a probable and in regards to the second it is written that he is believed to have been one of the four claimants against the Spitfire fighters of the 52nd FG, USAAF.

Horrido!

Leo
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 17th February 2020, 11:39
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,154
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Good morning Gabor,

OK, I keep Dóczy Lóránd in mind who was credited with 2 kills in the Me 210 on 13.4.44.

Good morning John,

OK, I note down 2 Me 210 claims for Dassow.
In Robert Forsyth's OSPREY volume, there's no sources or bibliography page.
Shall I tell you the names of the acknowledgements ?

Good morning Leo,

may it be that Dassow's probable from 2.3.43 was confirmed later ?

I wish you a good start into the new week,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17th February 2020, 13:30
HGabor HGabor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 966
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

The reason why Lt.Col. Dóczy Lóránd got credited 2 victories on April 13, 1944 in his Me 210Ca-1 Z.0+54, is because he destroyed a B-24H (S/N: 42-52366) at Délegyháza indeed, plus he claimed a P-38 at Szolgaegyháza (Now: Szabadegyháza).

Since the 15 AAF lost no P-38 in Hungary this day, this was just probably a damaged P-38.

BUT: 15 USAAF, 325 FG, 317 FS lost a Republic P-47D-15-RE Thunderbolt (S/N: 42-75651) right at Szolgaegyháza on April 13, 1944! When investigators saw the destroyed, burned remains of the Thunderbolt, they thought this had to be Dóczy's P-38 claim at the very same spot! So he got credited the P-38 since an American wreck was found at the reported spot indeed. The P-47 was in such a bad condition, that nobody could see that it was a P-47D, not a P-38. (Or Dóczy shot down the Thunderbolt there and reported wrongly as a P-38...????? If so, both of his claims were legitimate victories, not overclaims and perhaps he had the most victories in the Me 210 indeed.) P-47D pilot, 2Lt. Richard K. Malloy (O-673405) was KIA. His plane hit the ground vertically with full speed...

BTW, Lt.Col. Dóczy Lóránd (1905-1978) has passed away in 1978 in Montreal, Canada.
Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 18th February 2020, 11:10
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,154
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Good morning Gabor,

thanks for that elaborate and interesting info.
If Dóczy Lóránd was credited with 2 kills we could consider him the most successful scorer of the Me 210 until we find someone credited with three kills.
I wonder if Dassow's B-24 on 1.3./2.3. was part of his total of 22 kills ?

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 18th February 2020, 12:24
HGabor HGabor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 966
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Minor detail: some sources say Dóczy Lóránd, others say Lóránt. Both versions are known. Also, some say he passed away in 1974, others say in 1978 in Canada. See his, including his 1934 wedding pictures here:

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000...gged_profiles=

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 19th February 2020, 11:33
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,154
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Hello Gabor,

some sources say Dóczy Lóránd, others say Lóránt ?
Are both spellings possible/common for that family name in Hungary ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 19th February 2020, 12:26
HGabor HGabor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 966
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

This name has German roots (came from Roland). In Hungarian the Lóránd is just the OLDER version of Lóránt. Since in Dóczy's family/wedding info it was written as Lóránt, I think we can use the newer, Lóránt 'version' of his name. By the way, he was recorded as an aviator under both names, so the same person :-)

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 19th February 2020, 14:08
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,154
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Hello Gabor,

which version is written on the last document of his life: the tombstone ?

Kind regards,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 20th February 2020, 15:06
HGabor HGabor is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 966
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

I have never seen his tombstone. But his name is Lóránt in his wedding- and some family paper(s), so I assume Lóránt is the correct one.

Lóránd was probably just a typo in some researchers' publications. Not a big deal, both names are used and these 2 versions almost sound the same. Lóránd is the older, historical version and one popular University (oldest and largest) in Budapest is called Eötvös Lóránd Tudományegyetem (or: ELTE in short - https://www.elte.hu/en/), so probably this is the more common version, that's why the error in some aviation publications.

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 21st February 2020, 11:37
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,154
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Messerschmitt Me 210 scorers

Good morning Gabor,

you're right, it's a common cause of typos when authors encounter an umcommon spelling which they correct wrongly.
Typical German names subjected to miscorrection are Möller and Schmid.

Have a nice weekend,

Michael Zeh
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132) INM@RLM Books and Magazines 25 29th April 2019 14:53
Messerschmitt Me 210 or Me 410? Simon Schatz Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 13th December 2010 19:07
Zerstorer StaKa list: Evgeny Velichko Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 48 3rd May 2008 19:06
Messerschmitt Me 210 Boris Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 29th June 2007 21:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net