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Old 10th May 2005, 17:45
Monaco Monaco is offline
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Hartmann versus P-51s

Hello gentlemen,

it seems that the german „Ace of aces“, Erich Hartmann, still seems to be a case of dispute after so many years (see the recent heated discussion on the other forum).
I´m interested in Hartmann´s claims against USAAF P-51 Mustangs.
I have the following (questionable) claims:

21.05.44 2 P-51s (III./JG.52 was operating from Roman near Ploesti) according to Toliver/Constable (in their very unreliable book; there is also mentioned that Hartmann had to bale out after 2 claims against P-51s when chased by 8 others so maybe referring to this combat – contradictionary in the same book this combat is placed to one of the later encounters with P-51s)

01.06.44 4 P-51s (III./JG.52 was operating from Roman near Ploesti) according to Toliver/Constable (in their very unreliable book)

According to USAAF chronology of the air war 15th AF made no raids against Ploesti either on 21.05.44 and 01.06.44 at all! Also a fighter sweep seems out of question, because Toliver/Constable mention that the P-51s were on bomber escort and 9./JG.52 was tasked to fight the escort at least at one occasion (so maybe error in dates/ or pure fiction?).

24.06.44 1 P-51 at 0925 in Quadrat 65136 at 3.000 m. (III./JG.52 was operating from Roman near Ploesti) according to Tony Wood (the only P-51 claim of Hartmann in his claim lists – a very reliable source, but far from being complete); according to Toliver/Constable Hartmann made his victory claims No.262-266 on this day. According to Wood seven unknown pilots drawn from I. and II./JG 52 and II./SG 10, claimed victories on this day.

...03.45 1 P-51 as his victory No. 346 (Stab I./JG.52 was operating from the following airfields in March 1945: Weidengut (1.-16.3.45), Chrudim (16.-27.3.45), Raschdorf (27.-29.3.45) and Raudnitz (29.3.-17.4.45)) according to Barbas/Rajlich (on Kacha´s homepage).
According to Toliver/Constable Hartmann attacked a P-51 formation in 1945 with his wingman that was above a soviet Yak-11/Aircobra formation (circa 25 a/c) that was covering a formation of circa 30 Bostons/Pe-2s. Hartmann claimed 2 P-51s s/d (smoking, but no time to see them crashing) and then proceeded through the soviet fighters to hit a Boston (which was no sure shoot down). The second Rotte of JG.52 s/d one further P-51 who´s pilot baled out. The JG.52 Schwarm then escaped while the soviet and USAAF fighters apparently engaged themselves (Hartmann saw 3 Jak-11s going down burning and 1 P-51 with a glycol leak). A fighter fairy tale? There were indeed occasions when USAAF and soviet fighters clashed, but on such a scale it seems unrealistic. Barbas/Rajlich have one Boston or B-25 claim in 2.45 (No.335) and one B-26 (according to Toliver/Constable a B-25) on 10.4.45 (No348).

Does anyone have remarks/ more info reagarding the accurancy of the claims and possible USAAF opponents?

monaco
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