A "defecting" Jagdwaffe pilot...?

[veltro]

I am posting here a question that has been brought to me by another Italian researcher and that involves some kind of urban myths and popular rumours, but which could be worth searching anyway...

According to the story, during the Spring of 1944 (take the period with a pinch of salt), after a combat against Allied bombers in the Piedmont area (north-western Italy), a German fighter was shot down and the pilot - a certain "Karl Schelling" - baled out unhurt and landed in Valsesia zone, attempting to reach by foot the Swiss border, but ending in July (which doesn't go well with Spring...) with Partisans and joining them (!)

As you can see by yourselves, there are plenty of flaws, historically weird things and also some defy to logic... Anyway, since some bits of truth may still be lingering among the rest, I am serving it to your attention as it is.

Don't expect much, but who knows...

Thanks for your attention.

[kaki3152]

Interesting story. Kinda on the same topic is this account from "Senta a Pua" by Rui Moreira Lima on two interesting members of a partisan band. The book is the history of the 1st Brazilian Fighter Squadron in WWII. This squadron flew with the 350th FG as a fourth squadron. One of its pilots, Lt. Theobaldo Kopp, was shot down on March 7,1945 and evaded German soldiers to join a partisan band. He described two members of the partisan band. My own translation from Portuguese.

"It was on this ocasion that two important personalities appear in this narrative. One was a German captain,who had deserted from the Wehrmacht and the other was a Russian Lt. fighter pilot who had evaded the Germans after having been shot down in aerial combat. The German captain had served on the Russian front, was evacuated to France and after being sent to Italy for combat duty,voted with his feet [deu no pe] The Russian pilot bailed out over the Eastern Front, crossed the Balkans and arrived in Italy as a fugitive. Both not having where to go they resolved to join the partisans. According to Kopp, he[Russian] had a combative personality and had a pair of red balls. He was involved in everything. Kopp never knew his name. They conversed in Italian and French on some ocasions.
Karl [the German Captain] was used to retrieve partisans from hospitals or prisons. He would put on a German captain's uniform and form a group of six partisans using German uniforms. They would steal a German car and go to the place where the partisans where, either a hopital or a prison. With forged documents, they would pick up the partisan prisoners and leave immediately. After they retrieved the prisoners, they would torch the car far way from the locale and return to a feast with large quantities of wine. Karl, after one of these sorties, would revert to a state of layabout/lazyness. This was his only participation in a fighting role with the partisans. Still it was a brave action.

[ouidjat]

Hello,

... Interesting story Kaki, but not what is told but, yes, what is not told!
In effect the story is talking about TWO german guys:
one who was Wermacht captain and the second who was fighter pilot and who reached the same partisan band; I'm talking about the BRAZILIAN pilot KOPP; most probably (100% I would say) issued from brazilian german community, south Brazil (Minas Gerais if I'm right) settled down there well before WWII.
In effect there is no popular rumour neither urban myth. Simply memories mixed the two guys; And truly there has been a "german" pilot who reached a partisan after having been shot down. And the memory just recalled about the Captain who spoke just german ... the other one whose first name was Karl actually!

Think about that Ferdinando that's much more than some bits of true, isn't it?

Cheers, Franck.

[veltro]

Thanks everybody. I have a copy of "Senta a Pua" personally signed and dedicated to me by Gen. Rui Moreira Lima, who I had the honour of meeting personally in 1995 when I organized the visit of the veterans of the 350th FG and 1° Grupo de Caça in Tarquinia and Pisa, their former bases.

Due to my incomplete padronance of Portuguese language, I never read it completely and cherished it as a precious gift but, after your posts, I took it and on page 56 I found the paragraph relative to the persons we are mentioning, encountered by Brasilian pilot Theobaldo Kopp while being with the Partisans.

Kaki3152 is right: there were two separated figures (apart from Kopp) in the group, one being a Wehrmacht Captain and the other a Russian pilot.

The former, after having served on the Russian front, was moved to France and then to Italy, where he deserted. The Russian was shot down and baled out in the Eastern front and after having crossed the Balkans, arrived in Italy as a fugitive.

Kopp never gave or knew their names, but they are part of Kopp's memories and cannot have been mistaken or anything else in his account.

It is very intetesting how the account (BTW, Kopp was known as "il partigiano Guglielmo" during his stay...) apparently mixes up with the other story and may also be possible that some details of the latter (the name "Karl Schelling", for instance) may have been created or was the true name of the Wehrmacht Captain. However there are several other instances that does not collime at all (the period involved is one, Kopp having been shot down only on 7 March 1945...).

It is however a base to start checking some coincidences.

Thanks for the input.

[veltro]

One last addition: not only the timing (almost one year later), but also the placement of the two episodes (at a distance of no less of 250 Km from each other) should rule out any possible coincidence between the two facts...

Thanks again.

[micky]

Hello friends, i wrote about Kopp's partisan experiences some years ago. He was part of the Novellara (Province of Reggio Emilia) 77th Partisan Action Squad (know as SAP). With "Guglielmo" in the same squad was also a German deserter who join the partisans the previous year, an ex Parachutist called Fischer.

Carl Schelling was born in Stendhal on the 16 march 1921. A Medicine student, he join luftwaffe and became an NCO pilot. When he was shot down, he tried to get switzerland, but stop his journey near Roasenda, where he join the MUSATI brigade (Garibaldini partisans). He died in magdeburg on 22 august 1982

[micky]

...a picture of Karl Schelling (under the arrow)

[kaki3152]

So what unit did Carl Schelling fly with?

[micky]

Originally Posted by kaki3152

So what unit did Carl Schelling fly with?

...i'm waiting a reply from my friends of "Archeologi dell'aria", here is the picture...

[kaki3152]

For his birthplace, I think it should be Stendal,located in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. Also, its possible he was in a recon unit, or even bomber crewman