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  #11  
Old 29th May 2006, 17:09
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Hi guys

It looks as though I am causing confusion (again!)

Apparently a Mosquito flown by F/O DB Wills of 68 Squadron (noted as MM920 but obviously incorrect) was shot down by a Beaufighter from the same Squadron (name of pilot known to me) also on 29/5/44. I am unaware at this stage if the Mosquito crash-landed, but assume so as the navigator died from his wounds/injuries some ten days later. He was F/O CA Ledeboar. I am still investigating this and will advise if further information comes to light.

Incidentally, can anyone explain why 68 Squadron's ORB is so incomplete, particulary for 1944? It is as though certain incidents, many normal routine sorties, were not written-up.

Cheers
Brian
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  #12  
Old 29th May 2006, 18:12
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Hi All

Sorry if I added to the confusion. No 68Sq was about to re-equip with Mosquitoes during July 1944, but the unit had some Beaufighters left.
When Brian stated MM920 I didn't check which TYPE it was, just that it was or had been operational with No 68 Sq. MM920 was of course a Beaufighter VIF

However the Mossie MM503 never served with this unit. When shot down by a Beau from 68Sq it was used by No 604Sq.

Brian, can you confirm that this pilot from No 68Sq, who shot down MM503, ALSO shot down another fighter from his own unit the same night? Or did this unit manage to have TWO pilots shooting down TWO of their own aeroplanes during the same night?? The latter sounds pretty fantastic (read awful!).... Maybe somewhere there is a mixing of dates or something??

Cheers
Stig
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Old 29th May 2006, 18:25
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Here we go!

OK, the confusion partly stems from my assumption that MM920 was a Mosquito (black mark!). Now that we have established it was a Beaufighter, the 'fact' remains that MM920 (crew Flt Lt DB Wills/Flg Off GA Ledeboer) was shot down by Beaufighter V8742 (Flg Off CA Hansen) on 29/5/44 according to my records. Ledeboer was critically injured and died on 9/6/44 (I am hoping that AHB will confirm this since 68 Squadron's ORB is incomplete/inaccurate).

On 28/5/44 (not sure if same night, ie 28-29/5/44) Flt Lt Albert Holt DSO of 68 Squadron shot down Mosquito of 604 Squadron
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Old 29th May 2006, 19:08
Brian Brian is offline
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Talking Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Here we go!

OK, the confusion partly stems from my assumption that MM920 was a Mosquito (black mark!). Now that we have established it was a Beaufighter, the 'fact' remains that MM920 (crew Flt Lt DB Wills/Flg Off GA Ledeboer) was shot down by Beaufighter V8742 (Flg Off CA Hansen) on 29/5/44 according to my records. Ledeboer was critically injured and died on 9/6/44 (I am hoping that AHB will confirm this since 68 Squadron's ORB is incomplete/inaccurate).

On 29/5/44 (same night?) at 0400 hours, Flt Lt Albert Harvey DSO of 68 Squadron in Beaufighter shot down Mosquito of 604 Squadron. I have a copy of Harvey's CR.

I have a further set of queries re 157 Squadron Mosquitos: on 29/9/44 MM646 FTR from mission following 0100 take off from Swannington. Was it the victim of a US P-61, although the records of 422ndNFS and 425thNFS don't show any combats.

Daytime 29/9/44: Two Mosquitos searching for signs of missing crew. MM643 shot down by 'Me410' (any idea of Lw unit/claimant?), which was then attacked by second Mosquito and claimed probably destroyed (any Lw loss?)

Night 29-30/9/44: MM656 reported visual on another Mosquito which attacked and shot down MM656. Crew lost .Any ideas?

Cheers
Brian
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  #15  
Old 29th May 2006, 23:53
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Brian

Must have been a horrible morning for the 68th!!
I cannot add anything you already know, except perhaps that Jim Halley in the RAF MA100 - MZ999 states that MM643 was shot down by a Bf 109 while Norman Franks states as you do it was by a Me 410. Since it surely happened during the day, a Me 410 sounds a bit strange doesn't it?

IF MM920 IS the right Beau, it survived it's shoot down as stated in my first e-mail.

The loss of MM656 sounds strange. Again according to Halley, this was a Mossie sold to Sweden....
Cheers
Stig
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  #16  
Old 30th May 2006, 02:29
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Hi:

John Foreman's Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 5 says the Me 410 responsible responsible for the destruction of MM643 of 157 Sqn. was, based on available evidence, from SeeNotGr. 80, flown by Oberleutnant Langer. Time was around 11 a.m. according to Chorley.

I would not assume this aircraft was the one shot down by another 157 Sqn. Mosquito - Foreman gives this claim for an Me 410 by F/L Vincent as a night victory, though the location is close, off Great Yarmouth, according to Martin Bowman (who also says it was a night action).

The 157 Squadron aircraft lost the previous evening crashed as you know near Geesburg - a good long way from the North Sea. Most of what little I know about P-61s puts them over Belgium at around this period - see Erich's posts elsewhere.
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Old 30th May 2006, 10:07
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Hi Mark/Stig

According to the notes I have extracted from 157's ORB, MM643 was shot down by a Me410 at about 1145 (and would seem to be Langer's victim), this same aircraft then being attacked and claimed probably destroyed by Vincent. Therefore, not a night incident! Unless Foreman and Bowman have seen Vincent's CR that may state otherwise, then they are incorrect. I will see if I can locate the CR when I next visit PRO, just to settle this once and for all.

At least we've made some progress on this one as well.

Cheers
Brian
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  #18  
Old 30th May 2006, 11:37
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Thanks for that Brian - perhaps the source Foreman used for the info on Langer was a Luftwaffe loss report.
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  #19  
Old 30th May 2006, 13:37
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Hi Mark

Yes, I am hoping to confirm that (assuming he was lost on this date!). Will let you know what transpires.

Cheers
Brian

PS: I have just been looking at Tony Woods' Lw claims lists: Oblt Langer did claim on 29/9/44, but identified his victim as a Halifax II shot down from height of 50 metres east of Kattagat at 1205. He did survive as he made further claims, but not known if his aircraft was damaged in combat on 29/9/44.

Last edited by Brian; 30th May 2006 at 14:52.
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  #20  
Old 30th May 2006, 16:08
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Mosquito shot down by Mustangs, 28th March 1944

Brian,

F/Lt P W Vincent (anyone have his full name) + FO Frank Money claimed a probable Me-410 at 1107 hours on Sept 29, 1944, 12 m ESE of Yarmouth, in Mosquito XIX TA391 N. Info from CR: Air 50/66-118.

Frank.
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