Handley Page Halifax ace James G. Keys

[knusel]

Good evening Adriano,

no, I believe that Engbrecht has 5, Gillanders 3, plus 1 shared with each others, which adds up to 9. The other crewmen of were Charles Gunn (radioman), Pat Peterson (bomb aimer), Charles MacDonald (mechanic) and William Riome (navigator). They flew 35 missions.
https://www.bombercommandmuseumarchi...illanders.html
I leave the matching of claims to those who are proficient and interested in it.

Also, I still keep at your namesake Wilhelm Baumgartner. As soon as I have a breakthrough, I'll report to you.

Cheers,

Michael

[MW Giles]

It would appear that Gillanders has been unjustly overshadowed in the partnership
The Engbrecht & Gillanders - RCAF Air Gunners (bombercommandmuseumarchives.ca) article seems to be wrong in a number of respects.

Sgt P Engbrecht and Sgt G Gillanders arrived to join 424 Sqn on 12.05.44 (424 Sqn ORB) with the rest of their crew, including pilot F/O HA Kirkby. Sgt Engbrecht was the mid upper gunner (MUG) and SgtGillanders the rear gunner (RG)

They flew the first mission, a Gardening sortie to Scallops on 26/27.05.44

27/28.05.44 Flew in HX316/D to Bourg Leopold
BC Museum – Me110 and Fw190 destroyed

Combat report missing
424 Sqn ORB – HX316 Many fighters encountered and two definitely shot down by gunners
Skipton on Swale ORB – 424/D Two E/a destroyed
Bomber Command Monthly Summary – double claim by a 6 Group a/c but details unreadable

Interception/Tactics Report for Bourg Leopold Raid– S/e e/a destroyed outbound; Ju88 Des, Fw190 Des and Me109 destroyed over target; 2 x E/a destroyed and Fw190 destroyed on Southern Route home, Ju88 destroyed on Northern Route

In Action with Enemy (A Cooper) – S/e e/a destroyed and Fw190 damaged.

Conclusion claimed 2 x E/a destroyed, no indication which gunner responsible, types unclear

10/11.06.44 Flew in HX316/D to Versailles Matelots

Combat Report Me109 Destroyed 01:08 hrs (AIR 27/1836 p7) – both gunners listed
Combat Report Me110 Destroyed (AIR 27/1836 p8) – both gunners listed

Engbrecht fired total of 450 rds in both engagements, Gillanders 250 rds

Conclusion claimed Me109 and Me110 destroyed – both gunners involved


04/05.07.44 Flew in LV997/E to Villeneuve St Georges
Inconclusive combat with S/e e/a Gillanders fired 50 rds – no claim made (AIR 27/1836 p16)
Skipton on Swale ORB confirms 424 Sqn claims by 424/F and not Keys crew
6 Group Monthly Summary – confirms no claim in July 1944 by this crew

04.08.44 Engbrecht awarded CGM


07/08.08.44 Flew MZ802/G to La Hogue
BC Museum – Me410 and Ju88 destroyed by Keys crew

Interceptions/Tactics Report – 2 x S/e e/a destroyed by 3 and 6 Groups
BC Summary of Ops – 428 Sqn and 514 Sqn a/c claimed two Fw190s destroyed, confirming I/T Report
424 Sqn ORB – no mention
Skipton on Swale ORB – no mention
63 Base ORB – no fighters seen
No combat report found
6 Group Monthly Summary for August confirms known claims by 424 Sqn

Conclusion – no combat claims by Keys crew on this date

12/13.08.44 flew MZ802/G to Brunswick
BC Museum – Me210 destroyed and Ju88 probably destroyed

AIR 50/253/30 and 31 - Me210 destroyed 00:25 hrs – both gunners fired
AIR 50/253/34 - Me109 destroyed 01:03 hrs by Gillanders

424 Sqn ORB confirms – one of our a/c claimed to have destroyed two enemy fighters
Skipton on Swale ORB – confirms two combats – Me210 and Me109 (likely identification)
DFM citation for Gillanders confirms he shot down Me109 after sharing with Engbrecht claim on Me210.

Conclusion - accept account of claims given by AIR 50 records

16/17.08.44 flew MZ802/G to Kiel
BC Museum – Me110 probably destroyed by Gillanders and Engbrecht probably destroyed Me262

AIR 50/253/34 Gillanders claimed E/a probably destroyed at 00:40 hrs
AIR 27/1836 p 21 confirms (duplicate copy of Gillanders claim)

424 Sqn ORB – no mention
Skipton on Swale ORB – 424 Sqn E/a probably destroyed by RG
6 Group Monthly Summary for August confirms Gillanders claim, but no mention/trace of Me262

Conclusion claim made for E/a probably destroyed by RG, no claim awarded for Me262


13.10.44 Gillanders awarded DFM

Other oddities
In Action with the Enemy (Cooper) p 126/7 – Me109 and Me410 destroyed on 14.9.44 on Falaise sortie – mistaken date for 12.08.44 Brunswick raid

In Action with the Enemy (Cooper) – four nights later Gillanders claimed probable – mistake for 16.08.44 Kiel raid

I had a fun afternoon working that out. Primary sources are so much more interesting than surfing from websites

Martin

[knusel]

Good afternoon Martin,

good you had a good time.
What is your conclusion regarding the official (not necessarily verified) scores of Engbrecht and Gillanders ?

Cheers,

Michael

[phasselgren]

Good evening Martin and Michael,

The Monthly Supplementary Narrative of Operations is the “official” claims-list for Bomber Command. I checked these documents and Martin´s conclusions are confirmed.

The Narrative includes also short summaries of the combat reports which I include for the first two claims by Engbrecht.

Night 27/28 May
6 Group a/c Halifax “D” of 424 near BRUSSELS at 0218 hrs. height 8,000 ft. received a bow attack made by a ME.110. The M/U/G fired and the E/A appeared to drop off on one wing and go down in flames; a petrol tank exploding on the way down, followed by another as the E/A hit the ground. The ME.110 is claimed as destroyed.

6 Group a/c Halifax “D” of 424 near COURTRAI at 0235 hrs. height 6,000 ft. was attacked by a FW.190 from the port quarter up and broke away on the port beam. The M/U/G fired continuously and observed the E/A blow up in his sights and fall to earth. The FW.190 is claimed as destroyed.

Night 10/11 June
Claimed Me109 and Me110 destroyed

Night 12/13 August
Claimed Me210 and Me109 destroyed

Night 16/17 August
Claim made for U/I E/A probably destroyed

All night-claims for jets during this period were rejected by Bomber Command. RodM has made a research on these claims and I believe he made some comments about the claims for jet fighters on this forum.

Regards,
Peter

[knusel]

Good afternoon Martin & Peter,

if we assume that 9 was the official score of the Keys crew, then the kill list would look like this, wouldn't it ?

1. 27./28.5.44 Me110
2. 27./28.5.44 Fw190
3. 10./11.6.44 Me109
4. 10./11.6.44 Me110
5. 7./8.8.44 Me410 (maybe not)
6. 7./8.8.44 Ju88 (maybe not)
7. 12./13.8.44 Me210
8. 12./13.8.44 Me109
9. 16./17.8.44 Me110 (claimed as probable, maybe later upgraded)

Cheers,

Michael

[MW Giles]

You obviously have not understood our posts

27/5/44 Me110 destroyed
27/5/44 Fw190 destroyed

10/6/44 Me109 destroyed
10/6/44 Me110 destroyed

12/8/44 Me210 destroyed
12/8/44 Me109 destroyed

16/8/44 E/a Probably Destroyed

Is all there is

Martin

[knusel]

How do the personal scores of Engbrecht (5+1sh) and Gillanders (3+1sh) fit in?

[MW Giles]

You have to ask yourself where did you get those scores from?

If it is from the same Canadian website with the unconvincing claims data then I leave it to you as to how much credence you give the information.

If you can find a claim we have missed in original Bomber Command documents, please let me know. I will be pleasantly surprised

Martin

[knusel]

Only three Halifax gunners are included in the list of the Best Commonwealth Gunners on Bombers at Jan Safarik's website and the British night bomber suffered such grievous losses. Was it ever tried to provide them with escort night fighters, e.g. Mosquitoes ?

[knusel]

I found two Halifax gunners with a higher score than Gillanders, but not higher than Engbrecht: Edward de Joux (102Sq) 5 kills and Norman Williams (10Sq/35Sq/23Sq) 4 kills. I do not know if their claims were claimed as Halifax gunners exclusively.