602 Squadron claims 16 August 1940

[Peter Cook]

602 Squadron were involved in two combat actions on 16 August 1940, during the first, F/O Boyd claimed a Ju 87 at 13.05. The second series of combat took place between 16.55 and 17.10 during which claims were made for a He 111 by F/O Boyd and a Bf 110 by F/O Webb. These three claims are listed by John Foreman in RAF Fighter Command Claims, and by Simon Parry in the BOB Combat Archive. However, the 602 Squadron ORB Form 540 for 16 August states "17.10 – In these actions two Me 110’s were destroyed, one He 111 destroyed, two He 111’s probably destroyed and five Me 110’s destroyed." Does anyone know the source and the identity of the other pilots that made these additional ten claims?
In Zerstörer, Messerchmitt 110 and its Units in 1940, by John Vasco and Peter Cornwell, there is a section describing the loss of Lt Marchfelder's Bf 110 of Stab Ill./ZG 76 during the combat in question, with a quote from S/L Johnstone of 602 Squadron, who was the possible claimant, but I can't find a claim listing for Johnstone for this combat. Later in the text the authors also describe a possible claim by P/O Moody for the Bf 110 of Oblt Schlaffer, Staffelkapitän of 9./ZG 76. Again, I can't locate a claim listing for Moody. Any 602 Squadron historians out there?

[harryurz]

in the 602 Sqn biog "Lions rampant" by Douglas McRoberts, page 77 lists events on August 16th.

The squadron was scrambled just before lunch ('spam and boiled potatoes'!) intercepting Ju87s and Bf 110s near Tangmere. Webb claimed a Bf 110, and Boyd had barely raised his undercart when he spotted a Ju87 which flew across his sights. Hitting it with a burst, it crashed at the side of the airfield, as Boyd did a circuit and promptly landed. Boyd collected a Leica and a Luger from the wreck as trophies.
Johnstone, Webb and Urie had 'got among the escorts' and 'hit at least 6'; 3 were claimed destroyed. McDowall and Rose had claimed one definite Ju88 destroyed and two damaged.

"Enemy in the Sky", Johnstone's own account, states the Squadron were stood down in the morning, before " a complete panic of a take off" to intecept the attacking dive bombers. Johnstone mentions himself, Boyd, Urie, McDowall and Rose all claimed.


No mention in either of the later combat, sorry.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Francis K. Mason do inform on pages 272 and 273 of his "Battle of Britain" that:
Oblt Schlaffer and Lt Marchfelder were indeed shot down by Spitfires from 602 Squadron at 16:45hs over the Isle of Wight. There is a mention to another III/ZG 76 machine being shot down by RAF fighters, whose crew was rescued by Seenotflugkommando later.

The Ju 87 B of III/StG.2 is indeed confirmed at 13:08hs to a 602 Squadron Spitfire pilot (not named though). No crew details on the German side...

Could the He 111 claimed by that from II/KG 55 (crew of Hauptmann Sabler) who is registered as "Shot down by Spitfire of unknown Squadron at 17:28hs)?

A.

[Chris Goss]

This is the problem with Mason's book. When written, he did not have access to what we have today. Sabler was shot down by Goodman of 1 Sqn. None of III./StG 2's aircraft came down on land more like 3./StG 2. Quite a number of RAF pilots' claimed the ones lost-massive overclaiming and double/triple claiming this day

[Stig Jarlevik]

Reading these accounts one has to wonder both about the ORB and researchers reading them.
The book by McRoberts obviously mix two combats together making the book quite weak in my opinion
(see below)

1) Claim by Webb. The book by McRoberts state this was during lunch time. However no one else says that.
His claim is listed by everyone else at 17.10H!

2) Claims by 602Sq at/around 17.10H
The ORB proudly exclaim a total of seven Me 110 and one He 111 as destroyed plus two He 111
as probables.
Unless Perry and Foreman are totally hopeless in reading 602 Sq ORB (or maybe you Peter
is very good at it) they surely must have read the same accounts?
So why have they chosen to ignore this incredible 602 Sq success?

Did Johnstone score that day? No, not if we are to believe those researchers (Shores is just one
of them) who has written together his claims.

One question regarding the ORB of course is why they have listed the Me 110 claims as two posts.
Why not lump them together as seven but divide them as two and later five?

I have no good answer to that, but somewhere up "the ladder" more conservative minds
must have stopped these claims from reaching any further.

Any thoughts?
Cheers
Stig

[Peter Cook]

Thank you for the information posted so far. Harryurz, I have a copy of Lions Rampant, and like you I am surprised that there is no mention of the afternoon combat, given the heavy claims. Thanks for pointing out the Johnstone biography, which I don't have and have now ordered. To take this 'up the ladder' as Stig has suggested I have pm'd John Vasco, in the hope that he can shed some more light on this.

Peter

[Håkan]

Sgt Basil Whall also seems to have claimed in the afternon combat since he is credited with a 1/4 shared Do 17 15m S Portland (Shores).

Best wishes/Håkan

[Stig Jarlevik]

Tack Håkan (Thanks)

Interesting, since that is not even mentioned in the ORB unless Peter (and everyone else, but
Shores) have missed that. It immediately begs the question who the other three (two?) pilots were?
I say three or two since I have never heard of anyone being credited with a 3/4 claim....

It could of course have been one of the two probable He 111 coming out "garbled" in the ORB or
even by Whall's initial statement.

All very confusing
Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

I guess the researchers were based on combat reports rather than ORBs, considering them more reliable. The general problem is lack of understanding of FC victory verification process. There is no doubt that the victories were initially verified on Group level and then submitted to FC. Then in 1942 FC verified victories, adding to the mess, but I have not found anything about the process.
Anyway, I guess more information is in the records, but it would require a few hours in TNA, cross checking various ORBs and reports.
Franek

[gedburke3]

Hi all,
Just a thought.
Is it possible that another squadron joined the fighting and the claims mentioned in the ORB were a combination of claims from both squadrons participating in the same battle?
Gerry