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  #31  
Old 12th February 2017, 12:28
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
Is there an online explanation of the Marine Qu. system to match that available for the Luftwaffe system?
http://submarine-at-war.ru/docs/mari...24&newsquare=1

In the documents related to Marine/Luftwaffe cooperation both Lw and KM Qu. were used, often without explication. Sometimes it cause difficulties.

Warm regards,
Andrey
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  #32  
Old 13th February 2017, 16:14
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Thank you very much, Andrey! That is an intriguing website, as is the less well-developed sister website about Soviet airfields, http://airfields-wwii.ru

I have just had an obvious thought, in hindsight. Were there any reports from Soviet aircraft of naval AA fire directed at them? If there were, that would give some support to the proposition that the crew of the Molotov was confused. Conversely, if there were no such reports, it would be more likely that KG 26 did in fact attack the Molotov.

Warm regards,

Paul
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  #33  
Old 13th February 2017, 22:22
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Were there any reports from Soviet aircraft of naval AA fire directed at them?
Didn't research the events of 2/3.Aug.43 in details. Fighters claimed a He111 damaged (later was scored as downed) at 07:40+ MSK = 06:40 GST. But at the moment Germans had used bombs, not torpedoes.

It wasn't the missing He111 1T+JH from 4./KG26 because according to Andrew's post #21 Do24 had searched the missing He111 from 06:05 GST. Whether the other German losses are known for 2/3.Aug.42?

Published data about ships AA fire victims are controversial but probably 1 downed and 1 damaged planes were claimed.

Warm regards,
Andrey
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  #34  
Old 14th February 2017, 23:16
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
Fighters claimed a He111 damaged (later was scored as downed) at 07:40+ MSK = 06:40 GST. But at the moment Germans had used bombs, not torpedoes.

It wasn't the missing He111 1T+JH from 4./KG26 because according to Andrew's post #21 Do24 had searched the missing He111 from 06:05 GST. Whether the other German losses are known for 2/3.Aug.42?
Hello Andrey,

Thank you for another set of intriguing facts! The potential use of bombs raises the possibility, again, that there was no aerial torpedo attack. I do not think there were any other German losses on 2 or 3 August in the area, although I have not read every possible source. Looks like there was some kind of attack at night, during which 1 He 111 was lost, and another attack in the morning with no losses on either side.

Warm regards,

Paul
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  #35  
Old 17th February 2017, 14:46
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Hello Paul,

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Originally Posted by Paul Thompson View Post
The potential use of bombs raises the possibility, again, that there was no aerial torpedo attack.
But the evidence about torpedo attacks by 4 planes at 07:18 MSK is in conflict with this version.

Warm regards,
Andrey
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  #36  
Old 17th February 2017, 16:28
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
But the evidence about torpedo attacks by 4 planes at 07:18 MSK is in conflict with this version.
Hello Andrey,

Yes, the situation is very confused. 07:18 MSK was the morning after the Molotov was torpedoed, wasn't it?

Warm regards,

Paul
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  #37  
Old 17th February 2017, 17:09
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

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07:18 MSK was the morning after the Molotov was torpedoed, wasn't it?
Yes, it was unsuccessful morning attack, Molotov was torpedoed some hours earlier.
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  #38  
Old 24th February 2017, 13:11
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

It seems the time of loss of He111 1T+JH from 4./KG26 has fixed.
At 02:33 msk (01:33 MEZ) "Molotov" shot down a torpedo plane. The plane had inflamed in the air and then burned at sea 3-5 minutes.
At the same time (01:30=02:30 msk) MAS568 had attacked the cruiser with 2 torpedoes and claimed 2 hits (zero hits really). "Molotov" saw the boat and open fire at 02:30 msk.

At 01:30=02:30 msk Germans in Feodosia and on coastal battery (50 km away!) saw the burst and heard the sound of explosion. So later it was assumed as a firm evidence of the successful attack of MAS368. But really it was explosion of the German plane. As Luftwaffe had a sole loss over Black Sea 2-3.Aug.42, it was He111 1T+JH from 4./KG26.

Just to be safe, a question about losses of 4.(F)/122 operated over Black Sea. According to Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, 4.(F)/122 had two losses in Aug.42. I know about the loss 23.Aug but when was 2nd loss?
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  #39  
Old 24th February 2017, 16:05
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

In the excellent Joel Hayward's book "Stopped at Stalingrad" is mentioned, that daily report of Fliegerführer Süd for 3.Aug.42 (Tagesabschlussmeldung Fl.Führ.Süd für 3.8.42) survived the war (with reference to USAFHRA K113.309-3 vol.6 Fl.Führ.Süd Ia Nr.: 4450/42 geh.). Maybe content of this report is known to some forum participants?
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  #40  
Old 24th February 2017, 18:15
Paul Thompson Paul Thompson is offline
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Re: Did KG 26 hit the cruiser Molotov in 1942?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov View Post
It seems the time of loss of He111 1T+JH from 4./KG26 has fixed.
At 02:33 msk (01:33 MEZ) "Molotov" shot down a torpedo plane. The plane had inflamed in the air and then burned at sea 3-5 minutes.
At the same time (01:30=02:30 msk) MAS568 had attacked the cruiser with 2 torpedoes and claimed 2 hits (zero hits really). "Molotov" saw the boat and open fire at 02:30 msk.

According to Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, 4.(F)/122 had two losses in Aug.42. I know about the loss 23.Aug but when was 2nd loss?
Hello Andrey,

Thank you for looking further at this interesting incident. Do you mean that you have found the German report for the time of loss of the Heinkel and it matches Soviet information?

If MAS 568 did not hit the Molotov, then who did? Was it the crew of the lost Heinkel?

4.(F)/122 did not lose any other aircraft in August.

Warm regards,

Paul
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