italian stuka missions july-september 1943

[cheruskerarmin]

Hi all,

currently i am searching for info regarding the activities of 103rd (with 207th and 237th squadriglie) and
121 gruppo (with 206th and 216th squadriglie) bombardieri a tuffatori during the battle for
Sicily/Italy from july 10th - september 8th 1943. Both units were equipped with
the Ju87D.

As there are just a handful books and even fewer in english language dealing concrete with italian stukas i had to puzzle together from various books and websources (who are vague and/or differing)
what i got so far:

- 207th squadriglie was - due to previous bombing raids on their base - already reduced to four servicable a/c on july 10th 1943, when the allied invasion of sicily (operation husky) took place. These a/c possibly participated in a raid on the US invasion fleet at Licata
where they suffered heavy damage and were considered unservicable afterwards.

- 121st gruppo Commandante Orlandini flew together with five more pilots - most likely
from 237th squadriglia - to augusta and bombed the Royal Navy invasion fleet on july 12th
1943. The 237th squadriglia was attached to 121st gruppo. No info about losses so far.

- on 13th of july eigth to twelve ju87 were shot down all but one by
allied ship flak and fighters while attacking allied ships.

- 103rd gruppo seemed to be wiped out during the sicilian campaign, their remnants being
absorbed by 121st gruppo on september 8th 1943 (day of armistice).

Are there any detailed (additional) mission reports from these units?
For eventually making accurate profiles/flight sim skins i'd like to see pics of the dora
stukas very much. Got a handful but none of the 206th squadriglia so far.

Thank you very much for your help

Armin

[hanshauprich]

Moien,
the french magazin "AVION" handle this in or about 2008. Maybe the author has more detailed infos.

[Larry deZeng]

See:

Dunning, Chris. Courage Alone: The Italian Air Force 1940-1943. Manchester: Crécy Publishing Limited, 2009. ISBN: 9 781902 109091. Oversize Hb. 360p. Profusely illus. Color profiles. 17 maps. Dwgs. Tables. Appendices. Glossary. Bibliography. Index. Pages 130-31 and 138.

The author (Dunning) provides some additional information over what you already have, but not much.

Some years ago, there was an entire book about the Regia Aeronautica's Stuka-equipped units and their history, but it may have been in the Italian language.

L.

[veltro]

Personally (my extremely own opinion) won't consider Dunning's work a great reference.

The article "Les Stuka Italiens", published on the French magazine "Avions" appeared in three parts in the issues n. 159, 160 and 162. It was by G. Garello, IMHO, several notches above the author already named...

The other work Larry quote was published in Italy, but the text is both in Italian and in English (facing columns of the two languages). It was titled "Gli Stuka della Regia Aeronautica", n.2 of the series "Ali Straniere in Italia". Informations are detailed to single aircraft level, so it may be worth a look...

Hope this helps.

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Ferdinando -

Your valued opinion is accepted without question in all matters regarding the Regia Aeronautica. But for those who do not have Italian, Dunning is the best and only work available for a single volume reference on the RA units of World War II. His Sources listings in the back of the book are all file citations from the Italian archives, so he did use the available primary sources. I doubt if anyone would expect his work to be up to the high standards of a polished, experienced and published Italian aviation historian. But it's what we have for an English language table reference and within that framework I think he did a pretty good job.

Larry

[veltro]

Larry,

my own opinion is simply that, my own. Neither do I pretend to put at stake my presumed reputation to denigrate anyone, nor - on the other hand - I am willing to accept the equation "it's all that it is available in English, so let be satisfied with that..."

Also (and this is aimed at no one, but it's always valid in general) it is not a listing of sources that makes a good and well researched work, but rather what you do with them.

Last but not least, so little is still relatively known about the Regia Aeronautica abroad that certainly a work like that of Dunning has its indisputable merits, but the other side of the coin of that "little known" is that many statements, units quoted and so on have nothing to be checked against - in English -, so all has to be taken - for an English-speaking reader - with face value.

Since the post of cheruskeradmin clearly showed a rather deep level of research and a good knowledge of the particular topic, a work like that of Dunning (attempting to deal in a single volume with a whole Air Force through three years and no less than five operational fronts) simply seemed to me to fall rather short of the level of detail requested.

This is not to undermine that book, but rather to put in a more correct perspective its field of use, since even the best Swiss pocket knife cannot replace a proper tool. Always IMHO, of course..

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Ah Ferdinando, but from my personal experience in the Egyptian desert, a Swiss pocket knife is a real treasure trove by its own right;-)).
This said, it might ofc be a bit far off consideration for our colleague Cheruskearmin who needs the Ali straniere booklet for having the requested informations. From my small Bf 109 experience though, without your help, I would have taken for face value many errors published by it's author...

Cheers
Marc

[veltro]

Marc, if I understand well, you are comparing the quality of the work on the Italian Ju 87s with that on the Italian Bf 109s... Fair enough.

However, you cannot judge the quality of a fruit shop from a single apple. First of all the authors are different (AFAIK M. Gueli is the artist behind the drawings, not the historian), then I am used to value a work when I have enough knowledge to do that.

Since I'm definitely not a "know-it-all" guy, I am used to speak of what I know, and I am thus putting that work among the sources to be consulted until proof of the contrary.

I am instead sure of the quality of the three-parts article in "Avions".

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Point taken; I proceed the same way, except I've been a bit put off by the seemingly weatlh of information... only to be deluded later. As we say in French, a scalded cat fears cold water....

Cheers
Marc

[cheruskerarmin]

Thank you all very much!

I will look for the Ali straniere stuka book and the three part report in avions.
On the avions webpage just No. 160 is still available.

All the best
Armin