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Old 11th April 2007, 13:20
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Hello to all.
Does anyone possess information about what French units flown sorties on the following days with the Leo 45 and Leo 451? Which were the losses? There are a match for the claims submitted by Erich Rudorffer?
1-17/05/40 - one LeO 45 at 13:28hs at La Capelle-en-Tierarche
2-06/06/40 - one LeO 451 at 20:15hs at Roye

Glad in advance to all

Adriano
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Old 11th April 2007, 17:32
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

17.05.40: Groupement n° 6 (GB II/12 and I/31) which lost 2 a/c to fighters and 2 to flak.
Shot down by fighters, n° 61 which crashed near Floyon (4 killed) and n° 74 à Rogecourt (crew safe), both of GB I/31.

06.06.40: two missions around 3 and 4 pm (French time) in this area.
- n° 271 of II/31 shot down S. Roye; n° 38 of GB II/12 exploded on hitting the ground near Mézières-en-Santerre (the pilot bailed out but was killed by a 109 while floating down the ground); n° 151 of II/12 crashed by Braches; n° 152 shot down near Dompierre.
- n° 150, E. Montdidier; n° 3007, 8 km N. Roye; n° 3022, 10 km NW Roye; n° 183 by Bf 110. All a/c are from GB I/11. n° 214 of GB II/23, shot down by flak and 109s near Roye.

On 6th June, JG 1, JG 2 and JG 51 claimed 22 French bombers... about twice the number actually shot down.
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Old 11th April 2007, 19:46
robert robert is offline
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Hi,

the I/JG2 probably bagged three LeO451 from the GBI/11 on the 06.06.40.

Regards

Robert
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Old 11th April 2007, 20:12
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Considering that both missions were carried out in a short span of time and on the same area, I'd be cautious before drawing any conclusion.
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Old 11th April 2007, 20:29
robert robert is offline
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Hi,

it`s strange because the Germans claimed their victories in two packs:
- around 16.50-17.20 JG1,JG51,I/JG27 (LeO451)
- after 20.00 I/JG2 (and Martin 167 bombers - actually two Martin 167 were lost both to Flak - or more?)
Beside LeO451 planes the French lost also three Br.693 to fighters (to the I/JG51?). It`s really strange...Could you tell us which LeO451 unit was earlier in the air and which later?

Regards

Robert
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Old 12th April 2007, 09:43
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Breguet 693:
- GBA I/51, 8 a/c take-off at 1430; lost 1 to fighters.
- GBA II/54, 8 a/c take-off at 1500; lost 1 to fighters another being severly damaged.
Both groups attacked AFVs near Chaulnes.

Martin 167F:
- GB I/62 and II/62, 15 a/c take-off at 18.30; lost 1 to flak another being damaged.
Attacked AFVs between Roye and Péronne.

As for the LeOs, I have to check my notes. Will come back later on this topic.
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Old 12th April 2007, 10:01
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Here we go.
Unfortunately I have no details on the LeO take-off times.

Groupement 7 (I/11 and II/23) was the first one to bomb around 1530.
Groupement 6 bombed sometime between 1600 and 1630.
I cannot be more specific but I assume that, as it was a common practice for the French bombers, the second wave arrived over the area 45 min to one hour after the first one.
It really was a blood bath for the French bombers which lost 15 of their own, with 24 killed and 21 wounded.

Please note that the French crews noticed also Bf 110s among the E/A.

Chris
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Old 12th April 2007, 14:41
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

Hi Chris,

thanks for the additional notes.
So it seems imposible that JG2 was in contact with LeO451 formation. It looks more likely that they encountered Martin 167 formation but the French accounts didn`t mention any combat with german fighters...
BTW I have following Br693 losses for this day:
- GBA I/51 No.27, 63
- GBA II/54 No.29 and 1013 damaged by the fighters

Regards

Robert
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Old 12th April 2007, 19:14
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

There was a
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Old 12th April 2007, 19:15
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Re: LeO 45 and 451 shot down by Rudorffer ( JG 2 )

There was a time difference of one hour between France and Germany, but I assume you already took it into account.
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