Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Thread Tools Display Modes
Prev Previous Post   Next Post Next
Old 3rd February 2012, 15:56
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 847
Andrey Kuznetsov is on a distinguished road
Dogfights over Sworbe 18-23.Nov.1944 questions. Part 1. German claims vs Soviet losses

Hello, friends!

Some data and questions about dogfights over Sworbe - southern part of Ösel (Saaremaa) Island, Estonia.

18.Nov.44 began final Soviet assault against German bridgehead on Sworbe. Despite shortage of aviation fuel and tense situation in Kurlandkessel, Germans used most of fighter and ground attack units of 1.Luftflotte in attempt to prevent the collapse of bridgehead. Also, fighters were used as a cover for Kriegsmarine units in the area, including powerful 2.Kampfgruppe (heavy cruiser Adm.Scheer and destroyers).

German air-to air claims were following:

18.Nov.44: according to Tony Wood’s well known list, no Luftwaffe claims that day.
But according to German 16.Army documents, off Sworbe fighter shot down 1 Il-2.
Indeed, 1 Il-2 (448.ShAP 281.ShAD 13.Air Army) was damaged during FW190 attack, but managed to made belly landing in open space, remained repairable.

19.Nov.44, according to various AOK.16 reports, 3 or 4 Soviet aircrafts were shot down by fighters off Sworbe. Really, only one Il-2 was damaged, but managed to return to his airfield.

In the Wood’s list are 2 claims for 19.Nov.44:
Oblt. Kittel 2./JG 54 La-5 Qu.29 754: tiefflug 11:40 (13:40 MSC)
Really Il-2 (703.ShAP 281.ShAD 13.Air Army) was damaged, see above.

Uffz. Sporer Stab II./JG 54 Yak-9 Qu.29 781: at 100 m.] 13:05 (15:05 MSC)
Really no losses

Bad weather, no claims.

According to AOK.16 documents, 4 Soviet aircrafts were short down by fighters. Real number = 3.

Wood’s list contains 3 items:

Ltn. Thaler 4./JG 54 Il-2 Qu.28 175: at 20 m. 08.16 (10:16 MSC)
Ltn. Thyben 5./JG 54 Il-2 Qu.28 183: at 10 m. 08.20 (10:20 MSC)
Both claims are correct – 2 Il-2 (35.ShAP 9.ShAD Baltic Fleet Air Forces) shot down.

Ofw. Kroschinski 3./JG 54 Yak-9 Qu.28 117: at 500 m. 10.06 (12:06 MSC)
Claim is correct too – Yak-9 (12.IAP 9.ShAD Baltic Fleet Air Forces) shot down.

So, 5 claims against 3 real losses (Woods) are relatively good ratio.
8-9 claims against 3 losses + 2 damaged a/c (AOK16) seems relatively good too.

Anyway, the influence of Luftwaffe efforts on the overall situation was insignificant.

Soviet claims vs. reality seems more poor, but some additional info requires (see the Part 2 a bit later).

The difference between Wood’s list and numbers in AOK.16 documents appeared maybe because Army documents counted claims of III./SG3 (FW190F) and maybe even NAGr5 (Bf109G).

QUESTION: Are the claims from SG3, NAGr5 and maybe other units on 18-23.Nov.44 in Sworbe area exists?

Best regards,
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red Stars – Black Cross’s Ally over Poland. Soviet Aviation over East Part of Poland in IX, X 1939, a New Book Mirek Wawrzynski Books and Magazines 21 8th May 2009 19:35
60 years after German KL Auchwitz-Birkenau Mirek Wawrzynski The Second World War in General 10 7th January 2008 15:20
Historical Text on the Origins of WW2 on the Eastern Front - Peer Review Requested Dénes Bernád The Second World War in General 7 3rd May 2007 20:44
Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24' Dénes Bernád Allied and Soviet Air Forces 13 22nd May 2005 16:51
Soviet air force losses 1941-1945 Six Nifty .50s Allied and Soviet Air Forces 12 15th May 2005 17:57

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:07.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018,