Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15th May 2019, 22:51
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 13
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

hello,

search for further information about the
launch by flak of

1st lt. albert w. pines
asn O-695038
republic p-47 thunderbolt
324 fg / 315 fs


on 02.02.1945

is it right that there is no macr?
in that case the ipdf would integrate me ...
can someone help?

thanks a lot

regards
ghostwriter
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg F4D4569A-EF39-422B-8BA4-751FF3F78EAC.jpeg (90.5 KB, 14 views)
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16th May 2019, 05:05
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,569
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

As far as I know, there was no MACR for him. I can't find him on findagrave or the ABMC database, or the USAAF personnal database.

http://raf-112-squadron.org/324thfghonor_roll.html has him dying on 21 February 1945.

The book "Brennendes Land" by Fred Trendle has the following, at the date of 2 February 1945:
_ original German text: "Die 324th Fighter Group greift erneut Bahnziel im Schwarzwald an. Beim Angriff auf den Bahnhof Hausach, schiesst die Heimat-Flakbatterie 46/VII die Thunderbolt von Lieutenant Albert W. Pines ab. Pines stürzt mit seine P-47 tödlich getroffen auf dem Sportplatz in Hausach ab."
_ my translation: "The 324th Fighter Group again attacked railway targets in the Black Forest. During the attack on the Hausach station, Heimat-Flakbatterie 46/VII shot down the Thunderbolt of Lieutenant Albert W. Pines. Pines crashed to his death with his P-47 on the sports field in Hausach."

The book will usually give serial numbers for aircraft shot down, so the serial of Pines' P-47 was probably not available to the author.

Why there is no MACR for Pines is a mistery to me, as Hausach was only taken (by French troops) in April 1945, two months later.

There is a chronicle of Hausach available online. No entry for 2 February 1945, but a Jabo attack on 28 february is described. The entry on 23 December 1944 is about the Flak defences, and one gunner says his battery claimed 9 victories defending Hausach. See https://www.hausach-chronik-online.d...s-flakhelfers/

On this site, I found at https://www.hausach-chronik-online.d...erinnert-sich/ a confirmation of the death of an US pilot in Hausach on 2 February 1945:
"Am 2. Februar wurde von der um Hausach in Stellung gegangenen Flak ein amerikanisches Flugzeug abgeschossen, wobei ein Leutnant als Pilot den Tod fand. Ein Propellerflügel wurde im Mannesmann-Gelände aufgefunden."

Edited: in the link below, you will find a contact for someone presenting himself as the historian for the 324th FG. Maybe you can contact him.
https://gregsmodels.wordpress.com/20...hter-squadron/
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 16th May 2019, 12:36
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 13
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

laurent,

thank you very much ...
there are interesting approaches that can be used for further research!?

greetings
ghostwriter
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16th May 2019, 13:43
RSwank RSwank is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 984
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

A couple of other German articles about the incident. I think these are different than the ones Laurent found. (I could not locate the MACR either.)



https://www.bo.de/lokales/kinzigtal/...che-in-hausach

https://www.hausach-chronik-online.d...das-vergessen/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16th May 2019, 14:45
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,199
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

Elimination.
324FG Losses February 1945
02
Pines, Albert W - Kia.(21 ?).
03
Putt, Glen R. 314 FS - Kia.
13
Crafton, Eugene - 42-29333 - MACR 12095 - Pow.
15
Luthy, Walter F. - 44-32963 - MACR 12383 - Pow.
16
Slack, Clarence B. - 42-26869 - MACR 12443 - Pow.
19
Gross, Robert E. - 44-32757 - MACR 12225 - Pow.
20
Berlin, Alpheus - 44-19563 - MACR 12226 - Kia.
22
Plishka, Nicholas - 314 FS - Kia.
23
Rhodes, Jack M. - 42-28567 - MACR 12631 - Pow.
28
Manning, Jarvis R. 314FS - Kia.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16th May 2019, 16:13
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,539
Adriano Baumgartner is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

Why the Air Force did not wrote a MACR ?

Was there some reasons for NOT doing so...Alex just found some cases from 324th F.G. that seems to have NO MACR written.

What was the "rule" or "stanrdization"...perhaps there was no testimony, no witness...the plane just vanished without been seeing?

MAYBE this is the interesting approach to further investigations regarding MACR, not particularly this case.

A. Baumgartner
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16th May 2019, 18:06
RSwank RSwank is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bloomington, IN USA
Posts: 984
RSwank is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

There may well be a MACR, it is just "missing". One thing I found is that Albert was born as Abraham Pines in 1921, son of Morris and Tillie Pines. When he enlisted, he apparently changes his name to Albert. His serial number is actually O-695083 as shown on the list of New York war dead. (The first post above reversed the last two digits). He married Edna Sybil Herman in 1943.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 17th May 2019, 12:15
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,569
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

Adriano, a MACR would have been written even if there was no witness. Some MACR in the Pacific have nothing else than the crew list and the take off hour.

Regarding 9th Air Force, a good part of the activity was close to the frontline and so a pilot could be KIA and fall on friendly territory, or close enough to be found some days later. In these cases there will be no MACR, as the pilot will not be missing, but will be declared KIA.

For the above 324th FG cases, in the case of Lt Pines a MACR should have been written. So either it was poor paperwork by 324th FG, or the MACR was written but was then lost/discarded once the fate of the pilot was known some months later.

According to the Osprey book "P-47 Thunderbolt Units of the Twelfth Air Force", 1st Lt Nicholas Plishka was last seen before his formation was bounced by 12 Bf 109s in Bar-le-Duc area, France. The squadron evening report confirmed that he was killed when his P-47 crashed for unknown cause 4 km south of Bar-le-Duc. So in this case there should be no MACR, as the fate of the pilot was known the day of the loss. But on the other hand, the text says the squadron was bombing rail targets near Bar-le-Duc... that has been liberated on 31 August 1944, so it possible it was another place called Bar... Or the text confused the crash place of Plishka with the place of the bombing and air battle.

I have no details for the other two pilots.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19th May 2019, 18:34
ghostwriter's Avatar
ghostwriter ghostwriter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Southwest-Germany
Posts: 13
ghostwriter is on a distinguished road
Post Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

made a short trip in the neighbourhood,
took a detail from the memorial plate ...

regards
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg FEDC8B48-2622-45AA-A790-3D1A07FFE14F.jpeg (58.7 KB, 17 views)
__________________
I won't let you dig around in my brain, I won't let you steal my little show!? dr. koch - "1984"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 19th May 2019, 19:15
dp_burke dp_burke is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dublin
Posts: 511
dp_burke is on a distinguished road
Re: 1st lt. albert w. pines; 324 fg / 315 fs

He will have an IDPF file, but this wont yet be over in the NARA set up, though its very unclear. There are private companies offering to copy the IDPF now but prices seem very high. Seem to charge for research whereas all we want is a copying service.
__________________
regards
Dennis Burke
Foreign Aircraft in Ireland 1939-1945
http://www.ww2irishaviation.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Oberleutnant Dieter Meister Leo Etgen Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 33 1st January 2019 17:25
Siegfried LEMKE focusfocus Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 14th October 2018 14:33
List of the Legion condor pilots martin66 Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 15 29th December 2016 12:41
A P51 lost in February 1945 at La neuveville sous Montfort (Vosges Departmen=t gilles collaveri Allied and Soviet Air Forces 19 15th January 2013 08:27
Bueligens P-38 kills, disputed Black baron Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 42 4th March 2011 08:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net