3./KGr.zbV 9

[CJE]

Hello,

A Ju 52/3m of this unit was claimed by Enseigne de vaisseau Philippe de Scitivaux de Greische of escadrille AC1 (Aéronautique navale - or French Navy) over Ijmuiden on 10.05.40.
However, the loss of this Ju 52 does not appear in Peter Cornwell's book.
Can anyone tell me more?

Thanks in advance.

Chris

[Merlin]

A claim by the French Navy near Ijmuiden - some 350km away from the French territory, that's unbelievable.

The only Ju 52 shot down by fighters that day came down near Vrusschenhusken in Southern Holland near the German border.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Chris

According to Lucien Morareau the claim was made in the Marck area (Calais) and with both French units (AC 1 and AC 2) based at Calais, range is not an issue as such.
However why a German Ju 52 should be there in the first place feels a bit unlikely but since EV de Scitivaux was wounded in the combat he obviously must have been in combat with something....a Luftwaffe reconnaissance aircraft perhaps?

What is your evidence now to put the combat over Ijmuiden? A rather unlikely place for a Potez fighter unit basically tasked with convoy protection or equivalent coastal tasks.

Cheers
Stig

[CJE]

I worked from de Scitivaux's own testimony.
He wrote : "I decided to fly further up North off Ijmuiden and I saw a large German three-engined plane looking like an Arado."

He was in patrol over the Scheldt mouth, which is about 50 km away from Ijmuiden.

[Stig Jarlevik]

That was interesting Chris

Is this statement of his from a diary or is it some kind of testimony from memory some '50-years' later?

I believe Lucien must have worked from some kind of Naval records remaining in France which means the memory statement (if such) is in conflict with the remaining documents.

Have you been in contact with Lucien??

Cheers
Stig

[CJE]

Lucien is a friend of mine.
De Scitivaux personal account comes from "Le Rapport Jozan", a report by the Flottille F1C C/O (Jozan) written after the campaign of France. Of course, it was made from memory and may contain some inaccuracies. However, it's an excellent basis when you work on the fighter units of the French Navy.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Good Chris

What is Lucien's present opinion?
Evidently when writing the Hors serie no 31 for LELA Presse he was still not convinced about this 'new' location.

What was AC 1 mission for the day? Would be interesting to know why they were given orders to patrol such an area in Holland, which makes no sense to me, unless of course de Scitivaux was on his own.

Also the report given by de Scitivaux is odd, refering to a three-engined aircraft looking like an Arado, which is puzzling since Arado never built any three-engined aircraft! Does the report state how de Scitivaux was wounded? If the aircraft he attacked really was a Ju 52/3m it must have been one with defensive guns (not sure how common that was in 1940) and the way I see it, it must really have been way off course. Had the combat taken place over Haag or Rotterdam, I would have understood it better, but not IJmuiden.

Cheers
Stig

[Laurent Rizzotti]

You have a detailed story on the following link in French:
http://dkepaves.free.fr/download/chronologie.pdf

To sum it up, the French plan was to send a French Army to SW Netherlands. A part of the troops crossed Belgium by road, and some troops were to be carried by ship to Vlissingen. The first convoy left in the afternoon of 10 May and arrived in the evening.

According to the above source, the sortie where a German aircraft was claimed by de Scitivaux was an escort mission for Laté 298 floatplanes fying recon of the Scheldt mouth.

According to Arnaud Gillet's book "Les victoires de l'aviation de chasse française, vol 1, 10-15 mai 1940", 4 Potez 631 of escadrille AC1 based at Calais-Marck were escorting one Laté 298 of T3. EV1 de Scitivaux was late and flew alone. He possibly reached the recon area, did not find the formation and with available gas and nothing to protect decided to fly a little more north.

By the way, the Potez 631 of AC1 also flew cover sorties in late afternoon over the convoy going to Vlissingen.

[mathieu]

This is what I found on a Dutch website: http://www.verliesregister.studiegro...php?SGLO=T0329
It seems that at least a Ju 52 was lost near IJmuiden on the 10th of May 1940.
Interesting story!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Laurent

I was not aware of this operation by the French Army.
So AC 1 was tasked to protect the Laté 298 in the area where the river Schelde debouch and also presumably the Vlissingen area.

It still does not answer why de Scitivaux is on his own, way off his tasked mission and basically disregarding given mission orders.

It would be interesting to know what he really attacked that far north. A recce aircraft is most likely the way I see it. But obviously he failed to inflict any crucial damage to the aircraft in question since nothing known really fits.

Cheers
Stig