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Old 7th May 2010, 21:55
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Several French books indicated that during the battle in the afternoon of 24 September 1939 between GC II/4 and JGr 152 and JG 53, the French shot down two Bf 109. Everyone agrees that Oblt Borth of JGR.152 was shot down by Adj Dardaine, but the Bf 109 claimed shot down by Adj Camille Plubeau is given in the above sources as from I./JG 53, pilot claimed.

Problem is that in neither of these losses this pilot is identified (while other are) and there is no JG 53 loss this day in Peter Cornwell's "Battle of France then and now".

On the other hand, depending of sources, German claimed two victories in this battle (by Lt Elstermann and Lt Grasser of JGr.152), or three (by Fw Walter Czikowsky and Uffz Albrecht Baun of 6./JG 53 and Lt Walter Rupp of 1./JG 53). One Curtiss (n°66) was shot down and two damaged.

I have the following questions:
1) can someone confirm that JG 53 did suffer a loss in this battle ?
2) did the JGr 152 claim victories in the battle against GC II/4, or in the battle against GC I/3 before the same day ?
3) do anyone know the crash place of the shot down Curtiss (in my sources, it is just indicated that the pilot, Sgt de la Chapelle, bailed out and landed 800m from German lines) ?

Thanks in advance
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Old 9th May 2010, 19:53
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Bruce Lander Bruce Lander is offline
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Re: 24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Hello ,

"Les Pertes De La Chasse De Jour Allemande En France 1939-45 Vol 1"
by Pierre Watteeuw notesthe following:-

Bf109D-1 3/JGr.152 Lt. Kurt Rozenkranz 100% F/L E of Sarrebruck
+12 Braune

Bf109D-1 JGr.152 Gef. Hesselbach 100% Combat with Ms406
14 km E Sarreguemines

Bf109D-1 JGr.152 Oblt. Borth 100% Combat wth Curtiss
H-75
16 km E of Sarreguemines

3 Photographs of Rozenkranz's 109 are shown being examined by French troops

Regards

Bruce Lander
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Old 9th May 2010, 20:47
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
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Re: 24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Hallo Laurent

Do you have Shores et all's book Fledling Eagles? In there a very plausible summary of the days happenings is stated. If yes, I would be interested in why you disagree and if no, I am happy to state what it says

Cheers
Stig
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Old 9th May 2010, 20:50
alessandro bray alessandro bray is offline
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Re: 24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Hallo,

actually JGr 152 flew 2 different patron on 24.09.39. In the first one agianst the GC I/3 Morane (Lt Rosenkranz and gefr. Hesselbach shot down and both POW), the second against GC II/4 H-75 (Oblt Borth shot down, 2 Bf109D damaged 40% and 30% respectively).
After this last combat some french fighter had a brief clash with 4 Bf109E of I/JG 53 and Adj plubeau claimed one shot down, but the Germans suffered no losses.

JGr 152 claims in the first combat:
Lt Rosenkranz, Oblt Schnoor, Lt Hagen, Ofw Oertel all Morane 406

Source
Fledgling Eagles- Christopher Shores

Regards
Alessandro
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Old 16th May 2010, 17:22
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: 24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Thanks to all,

My conclusion is that the "unknown JG 53 pilot" killed this day exists only in French claims, and that only JGR 152 suffered losses on the German side.

Best regards

Laurent
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Old 12th November 2012, 09:40
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: 24 September 1939: GC II/4 vs JGr 152 and I./JG 53

Gentlemen,
can anyone confirm the EXISTENCE of "Olt. Borth" from JGr.152?
How much missions were flown by JGr.152 on this day? In my records the afternoon aerial fighting took place between GC II/4 and II./JG 53 with I./JG 53. No trace of JGr.152 then.

Best regards,
Marius
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