German losses over Austria

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Guys

Just received the booklet Sonderheft 30 published by ÖFH regarding Lw losses over Austria 1943-45

On page 17 I am very puzzled that the SAME Ju 88A-4 appears BOTH on 18/9/43 and 19/9/43 with two different units (18/9 with LG 1 and 19/9 with KG 54), but the same accident place (Wiener Neustadt)
The WNr is 141165

Is this likely? The % damage is not listed on the 18th, but it is stated to have overturned on landing. Perhaps someone knows more and can confirm or deny the above puzzle of mine. If there is a fault in there perhaps the correct WNr is known as well??

Cheers
Stig

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Stig.

I think this is a misprint. According to my data, L.G. 1 did not suffer a loss on 18.09.1943.

The IV./K.G.54 loss is recorded as follows:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107102

The L.G.1 losses coming closest are:

I. Gruppe:
A loss on 19.09.1943, but that was at the airport at Prag (Praha)

II. Gruppe:
No losses between 18.08.1943 and 06.11.1943

III. Gruppe:
Closest losses in time are two aircraft that collided in the air at Münster-Handorf on 21.09.1943

IV. Gruppe:
Had one loss on 17.09.1943 (WNr 3910) that made an emergency bellylanding due to engine trouble, and a loss on 16.09.1943, when WNr 3978 was damaged 75% when it flipped over on landing, also at Wiener-Neustadt.

Regards,
Andreas

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Andreas

I checked Sonderheft 30's source, ie the LG 1 book (Vol 2) and can confirm it has THAT source correct. Peter Taghon DOES quote the loss from I./LG 1 on that date even listing two crewmembers. It is however impossible of course to deduct which source was used by him.

Thanks for taking the time to check your records!! Appreciated

Cheers
Stig

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Stig

Solved it:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=107105

So the solution was that the aircraft was so slightly damaged in this landing accident that it wasn't recorded. The mentioned publications should however be corrected. It would also be very interesting to see if the Namentliche Verlustemeldung for these crewmembers mention the aircraft flown.

Regards,
Andreas

[Stig Jarlevik]

OK Andreas
So we know it was real then. However I am not so sure the accident was all that insignificant. Two crewmembers were wounded and the aircraft itself overturned on landing. Somehow I cannot picture A "gang" of Black Men working like scolded rats having the aeroplane ready for transfer to a new unit next morning and they in turn straight away doing mince meat of the aeroplane....

I have a suspicion one of the numbers have been recorded incorrectly, but maybe I am too suspicious by nature....

Andreas, thanks for the digging.

Cheers
Stig

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Stig.

Until we get further information from the Namentliche Verlustemeldung or other contemporary sources my postulation is that the aircraft with the mentioned WNr was a KG 54 bird, while the aircraft flown by LG 1 are a 'WNr unknown' as far as I am concerned.

So someone have to come up with a comtemporary source for the WNr on the LG 1 bird before I take this as a final answer.

We do not know to what extent the crew members was wounded yet. I have seen (and heard a few recollections from veterans) examples of belly landings with 109's that were below 10% but with injuries to the pilot. In one of these the aircraft slid to a halt on a grass landing strip, and the pilot banged his head against the gunsight and was rewarded the Verwundetenabzeichen for his head injury, while the aircraft is not recorded in the loss records at all (only visible from the NVM and in his logbook).

So in my opinion, we need the NVM for these guys, or an entry from a unit log or something similar in order to state that this is the same airframe.

Regards,
Andreas

[edNorth]

Hello guys:

I think the 70%/75% damage was overestimated and this was perhaps repaired as same is also known much later:

141165 Ju 88 A-4 IV/KG 54 (Luftflotte 2)
Non-OPS (H) swung on landing (15%) Grottaglie 12.05.1943 (rep as A4 1165 in LWFLV losses 60v19.05.43)
- Ju 88 A-4 10./KG 54 (Lw.Befh.Mitte)
Non-OPS (H) pilot error on landing (75%) at Wiener-Neustadt Airfield 19.09.1943 (rep as A4 1165 in LWFLV losses 26v22.09.43; also rep ´A4 141165 10./KG 54´ pilot error crash (70%) at Wiener-Neustadt on 18.09. <48v10.10.43>)
- Ju 88 A-4 [VE+HM] Luftwafe
Found at Metz/Frescaty Airfield [rep as A-4 141165 VE+HM in A.I.2(g); rep as a4 1165 on LEMB homepage]

cheers
ed

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Ed (AND Andreas)

Our suspicion seems to have carried fruit.
Since 141165 was with IV./KG 54 already in May 1943 it seems highly unlikely to have been with LG 1 in September one day before getting badly damaged by KG 54 again!
So it looks like your feeling (like mine) Andreas that the LG 1 Ju 88 is something totally different is correct.

As usual I am both impressed and amused at the excellent files some of our members have at their "fingertips".

Thanks again Guys!!!

Cheers
Stig