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  #101  
Old 5th April 2022, 19:13
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Dear SM, in these particular cases, the first three digits before the slash (there are too many to tell the slash is an error) are not identical, many of them are unique, so they are certainly not the manufacturer's identification, but rather an odd serial number, divided by the slash.
I need to "dig in" more, perhaps I will find a clue one day.
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  #102  
Old 29th July 2022, 16:00
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi everyone,
I am pleased to say that I have more results about the DB605 engine serial number analysis from the loss records of the 800+ engines supplied by Matti, Tomislav and otherb contributors.
So far in my posts (mainly about #68 to #70) I have covered the DB600/601 engines and I think the numbers stack-up well. However, although the further numbers for the DB605 are well represented, my analysis of the DB605 5-Digit serial numbers is not satisfactory. Simply put, the numbers of engines indicated by the 5-digit block numbers seems too high. I suspect that there may be gaps in the serial number allocations that I cannot identify.
So, I decided to consider the later DB605D engines in the loss reports and I quickly saw how well defined they are, for the period Nov '44 to Jan '45. I will report those details later.
A by-product of the 605D study was a better definition of the 605A serial numbers for the new 8-digit numbering system that was introduced in about early 1943. The 8-digit numbers have the first three digits for a makers id, eg 007 for Genshagen, followed by a five-digit number for the sequential engine serial number starting 00001. So, the first engine in this new numbering from Genshagen was 00700001.
I was able to corelate the BIOS report of engine manufacture quantities, dates and plants accurately and easily confirm data against the loss table engine numbers and the inferred production numbers.
There are some interesting relationships between engine production dates and the date of the loss. Generally, the first date of loss of a series in the data will be a fairly early serial number, but it won't be the first made. The vagaries of engine supply, airframe build date and then use mess it all up. However, the dates of some losses were fairly close to manufacture and, with these series here of over 10,000 engines, there is some good correlation.
There are some errors in the data I have to work with here, possibly 1%. I think that I can accurately correct 50% of those but some are just errors that cannot be corrected accurately. Fortunately, the data is large enough to not use the info with errors.
The number of engines in this 8-digit engine serial number analysis covers approx 25,000 DB605A engines built by six manufacturing plants in the period. There is one plant with 10,000+ engines, two with 6,000+ and two with less than 2,000.
I will list the details on my next post.

Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 29th July 2022 at 20:34.
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  #103  
Old 30th July 2022, 11:51
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

The 8-digit DB605 serial numbering appears to have been introduced in early 1943. The exact dates seem to vary with different production plants, calculated from the dates of the loss reports and the records of production figures in the BIOS report. This probably reflects the varied dates for completion of previous batches in the 5-digit serial numbering system. Very helpfully, the loss reports of the Bf 109 airframes with dates, types and sub-types gives considerable information about the engine type, although only the engine serial numbers are given. The BIOS reports of engine manufacture lack any detail of engine models produced, other than "601, 603, or 605" and the monthly production figures. The BIOS written report does give further details of factors effecting individual plants and this is helpful in some cases. Nonetheless, the details that I have extracted are accurate in respect of the overall production.
I will attempt to present a similar table to that produced earlier by Tomislav. It must be borne in mind that the dates of production are estimates from the loss records and production records. Additional complications occur where engines were held in store and also overhauled at central plants.

SM
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  #104  
Old 30th July 2022, 13:22
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

These listed tables below are estimates compiled from data in Bf 109 loss reports that were provided by contributor Matti. These details relate to DB 605A engines produced with the 8-digit numbering system introduced in approximately early 1943, superceeding the previous 5-digit numbering.
The 8-digit engine sample are approximately 450 sets of data. Only data from engines in the data set is used and so, other engine production plants are not shown.
After approximately Feb 1944, these engines will include some DB 605 AS versions and, after May 1944 engines built for MW50 ratings.


Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH (Genshagen Kreis Teltow)
Factory code hsq
Engine serial numbers:
00700001
First in data 00700207. Last in data 00711041. Prod data 11,000+.
Series started est 5/43.

Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel)
Factory code hsr
Engine serial numbers:
01100001
First in data 01100209. Last in data 01105056. Prod data 6,000+
Series started est 6/43.

Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo" (Braunschweig-Querum)
Factory code hss
Engine serial numbers:
00200001
First in data 00200084. Last in data 00205995. Prod data 6,000+
Series started est 3/43.

Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G. (Werk Steyr)
Factory code bnz
Engine serial numbers:
01900001
First in data 01900030. Last in data 01901868. Prod data 1,600+
Series started est 2/43.

Donau-Flugzeugbau (Csepel-Budapest) (Weiss)
Factory code kwn
Engine serial numbers:
00400001
First in data 00400055. Last in data 00400780. Prod data 1,200+
Series started est 4/43.

Cheers

SM
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  #105  
Old 30th July 2022, 15:07
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Many thanks, SM, for the updated production table.
My question is: did you include the DB 605B production as well? The reason is that those two sub-types were almost identical, only the reduction gear made the difference.
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  #106  
Old 30th July 2022, 18:32
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hi Dénes,
Well, the data of DB601, 603 and 605 engines in Bf 110 and Me 410 losses that was also generously supplied by Matti, covers some 140 engines of those types. However, only eight of those engines are 8-digit serial number DB605 engines and they all fall within the scope of my data above. The other 132-odd engines are earlier 5-digit serial numbered DB601 and DB605 engines. As I have commented, the 5-digit serial DB605 engines have presented difficulties with my earlier analysis, as the numbers (total of block numbers) seem to be far too large. However, I might revisit the DB605 5-digit serial number data again in future, if I can face it!
Pleasingly though, this analysis of the 8-digit serial numbered engines in the loss record data and the BIOS report is very satisfactory. To illustrate how it fits, the BIOS report shows approx 34,700 DB605 engines built in '43 + '44. The engines built in early 1943, before the 8-figure serials, were approx 4,000, that leaves approx 30,700. Then, there are the "other" plants production (from BIOS) that do not appear in the loss report data I have that total approx 6,700, therefore leaving approx 24,000 engines in the blocks that fall within the loss reports I have worked from. So, this fits with about 95% accuracy.
There are of course many details that nothing short of a complete detailed record of all production and exact types produced when and where could resolve, but that does not exist. The main omissions from my data include DB605 production at "other" plants which the BIOS report lists as "FIAT, Pommersche, Ostmark and Avia" The BIOS report does not mention Swedish production.
So, overall I am pleased with this work. It should allow anyone researching an RLM 8-digit DB605 engine serial number to find a cross reference with 80% success. X-referencing with the BIOS report should give an accurate production date, within about one-month accuracy.
It would be great to see further info about the "other" plants and a better understanding of the earlier 5-digit DB605 engine production is needed.

Cheers

SM

PS. I have since noticed that I have made an error in the BIOS production report. The "Pommersche, Ostmark and Avia" production is listed as just DB 603. This makes a difference of about 6,300 engines on my DB 605 figures. However, the figures above will be revised and updated. This also leaves a better situation in that, there are no known "other" DB 605 production plants, at least no others that show in the BIOS report.
Also, the Bf 110 G using the DB 605 B engines was built in about 3,250 examples during 1943 and 1944. These would have required about 6,500 DB 605 B engines, that came from the totals of DB 605 production.
I will revise the figures and I can see some further revision that can be applied due to my data on the DB 605 D production in the later part of 1944.

Last edited by schwarze-man; 31st July 2022 at 11:28.
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  #107  
Old 31st July 2022, 19:34
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

As I indicated in my PS to my post #106, I made a mistake in including some engine production figures from other plants producing the DB 603. I have now reviewed the data. There are now allowances made for the change-over to production of the DB 605 D engine at two plants, first at Henschel where the DB 605 D is estimated to have started production properly in Aug '44 and at Genshagen where DB 605 D production may have started at the beginning of Nov '44. These changes reflect on the dates for the various estimated start of 8-digit engine serial numbering due to the correlation of the engine loss data and the BIOS report engine production figures. In addition, I have tried to improve the accuracy of the figures given.


Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH (Genshagen Kreis Teltow)
Factory code hsq
Engine serial numbers:
00700001
First in data 00700207. Last in data 00711041. Production data 11,200.
Series started estimate 5/43, Finished 10/44.

Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH (Kassel)
Factory code hsr
Engine serial numbers:
01100001
First in data 01100209. Last in data 01105056. Production data 5,250.
Series started estimate 6/43, Finished 7/44.

Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo" (Braunschweig-Querum)
Factory code hss
Engine serial numbers:
00200001
First in data 00200084. Last in data 00205995. Production data 6,500+.
Series started estimate 5/43. Finished 3/45 (but figures relate to 12/44).

Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G. (Werk Steyr)
Factory code bnz
Engine serial numbers:
01900001
First in data 01900030. Last in data 01901868. Prod data 1,900.
Series started estimate 2/43, Finished 12/44.

Donau-Flugzeugbau (Csepel-Budapest) (Weiss)
Factory code kwn
Engine serial numbers:
00400001
First in data 00400055. Last in data 00400780. Prod data 1,200.
Series started 4/43, Finished 9/44.


Pleasingly, this analysis of the 8-digit serial numbered DB 605 engines in the loss record data and the BIOS production report is very satisfactory. To illustrate how it fits, the BIOS report shows approx 34,700 DB605 engines built in '43 + '44. The engines built in early 1943, before the 8-figure serials, were approx 4,300, that leaves approx 30,400. Then, there are the engines from Henschel and Genshagen that were produced as DB 605 D, total 3,700 leaving approx 26,700 as the gross production figure of DB 605 A/B/AS (and MW50 after 5/44) engines in the 8-digit serial blocks till 12/44. If we take just the highest recorded 8-digit serial numbers from loss reports, that is 24,740. That shows a figure of over 92% which is very good. If the estimated production figures are used, the correlation is over 97.5%.
The value of this analysis is, I think, that anyone with a copy of the BIOS report monthly production figures can take almost any 8-digit DB 605 serial number and identify both the manufacture plant and the date of manufacture, accurate to possibly one week. If anyone has an 8-digit DB 605 serial number, they can try me here and I will refer to the BIOS data and give a reply.

Cheers

SM
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  #108  
Old 2nd August 2022, 13:07
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Well,
No takers on the 8-digit serial number dates?
OK, I can do one to illustrate. How about, 00706308.
Here is the 007 8-digit code id:

"Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH (Genshagen Kreis Teltow)
Factory code hsq
Engine serial numbers:
00700001
First in data 00700207. Last in data 00711041. Production data 11,200.
Series started estimate 5/43, Finished 10/44."


Here is the loss report from the data for 00706308:

"10/10/44. 9.JG52. Bf 109 G-6. 440576. White 8. Motor 00706308."

So we can refer to the BIOS report and the monthly production figures for DB605 at Genshagen 8-digit codes produced between 5/43 and 10/44.
These are:
5/43-500. 6/43-566. 7/43-469. 8/43-359. 9/43-459. 10/43-578. 11/43-390. 12/43-587. 1/44-500. 2/44-640. 3/44-730. 4/44-862. 5/44-851. 6/44-862. 7/44-1040. 8/44-450. 9/44-700. 10/44-410.

So, starting with 00700001 on 01/05/43, we can add the months' output to get 5778 at end 3/44. Dividing the production in 4/44 by 30 days gives just under 29 engines per day, giving another 19 days to add to reach 00706308 and therefore a production date of 19/4/44.
Also, to compare the other way, working back from the completion of production at end 10/44 with 11200 as the estimated final production number, subtracting the monthly production figures we get down to 6887 at the beginning 5/44. Again allowing the 29 a day we get another 20 days back to reach 06308 so, a production date of 10/4/44.
Well, that is the limit of the accuracy here, between the 10th and the 19th of April 1944.
Now, it would be possible to fudge these figures by manipulating the start and finish dates of production and/or the estimated production figures but, this has not been done. These are pure figures. The production quantities are from the BIOS reports, the start and finish dates are a partly from production data and the loss reports data.

Cheers

SM

Last edited by schwarze-man; 2nd August 2022 at 17:51.
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  #109  
Old 2nd August 2022, 18:39
S Sheflin S Sheflin is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Hey SM,
Thanks for all of your research and hard work.
I always enjoy adding new data to my Luftwaffe engine databases and applying your groundbreaking research as well.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
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  #110  
Old 2nd August 2022, 20:32
schwarze-man schwarze-man is offline
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Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S Sheflin View Post
Hey SM,
Thanks for all of your research and hard work.
I always enjoy adding new data to my Luftwaffe engine databases and applying your groundbreaking research as well.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin
Thank you Steve!
I feel that these 8-figure engine serial numbers and production data, correlated with the significant loss report database from Matti Salonen is an accurate tool for the DB605 researcher. I am grateful for your support. If you find any questions or wish to make a point, please jump in!

Cheers

SM
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