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  #11  
Old 30th June 2022, 15:18
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

OK, Chris, will look further. I missed the chance to get the relevant volume of Jean-Pierre Ducellier's 'La Guerre Aérienne dans le Nord de la France' when it was on Abe last year; I know this is mostly about ops north of the Seine but it covers the Paris region too and might include something. Maybe a TOCH forum user might have it and could check? Unfortunately, Bruno Renoult and Paul Hailwood's '1944 Guerre en Ile de France, Vol. I – Les préparatifs' doesn't go anywhere near this time period, but I wonder if the former wrote an article extending his coverage back to January?
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  #12  
Old 1st July 2022, 12:44
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Simon

I have sent a scan from vol 2 of the Jan Horn KG 6 history which covers the three 198 Sqd Ju 88 claims for 13th Jan .

Regards
Brian Bines

Last edited by Brian Bines; 1st July 2022 at 15:46. Reason: The Leo 451s referred to previously were lost 12th Feb 44
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  #13  
Old 1st July 2022, 13:54
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Brian - thanks very much, the Horn scan was most helpful. So unless clear 'competitors' emerge and Horn is incorrect, three 11./KG 6 losses, one with its entire crew, one crash-landing with one dead and one injured, and one successfully landing at Bretigny with its crew all OK.

Thanks for all these contributions, which are most helpful for photo-captioning purposes.
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  #14  
Old 1st July 2022, 18:02
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Simon (Brian)

In my copy of Horn's KG 6 book Vol 2 (page 110 and 347) there are only two losses that day.

Horn lists the two as WNr 300 003 and 144 391 which differs a little from what Matti stated earlier in this
thread, but agree with his total number of losses.
From where does the third aircraft come from?

However, as can be seen, the difference is the inclusion of "early" digits making both late production 88s

Matti
I can only assume you are quoting directly from the NVM but does your 88 production list also confirm
what Horn says?
Other candidates are of course WNr 140 003, 550 003 and WNr 088.4391.

Cheers
Stig
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  #15  
Old 1st July 2022, 20:01
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Peter Taghon’s KG 6 history gives the same two crews as Matti does above.
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  #16  
Old 2nd July 2022, 10:13
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Sorry, Stig, I should not have used 'losses' in my post. As I understand p.110 of Horn KG 6 vol 2, 144 391 is damaged by F/O MacDonald and makes an emergency landing with the pilot a fatality and the wireless operator injured. 300 003 is shot down by Plamondon (probably the IWM photo, if the original caption is correct). And then Horn goes on to say that a further Ju 88 is damaged but reaches Bretigny and the crew is OK. This is in the same paragraph as the information about Plamondon's success, and I read it to relate to the three 198 Sqn claims. But damaged, not a 'loss', is more accurate. And no work number or crew names are identified.

And Nick, yes, in Taghon p.292 I now see the losses - I stupidly missed this first time around.
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  #17  
Old 2nd July 2022, 12:55
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Thanks Simon

Clears that up....

Cheers
Stig
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  #18  
Old 2nd July 2022, 13:02
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

On the combat report 4 pilots shared a claim for an Arado 96 ( originally identified as a Me 108) this crash landed St.Cyr-En-Arthies aircraft was strafed and set on fire . Ar 96 4489 of JG 105 Uffz Edwin Tappert killed ?

F/L Dall states two baled out from his claim aircraft crashed in open country west of St.Leger possily the aircraft of Uffz Schüley ? (Horn gives by Mere 14 km south of Jumeauville)

F/O MacDondald was about to make a third pass at his when it just cleared a cliff on the north bank of the Seine and then crashed and broke upon a plateau north of La Roche Guyon . He noted if had the number 348 on the fin

F/O Plamondon states his crashed in flames by a country lane 3 miles east of Septeuil with Blue 4 filming the wreckage - Uffz Müller ? ( Horn gives 6 km S/E of Jumeauville)

As NVMs are often the only source of 1944 losses perhaps the crew of MacDonald's victim survived thus no NVM with the aircraft reported in the now absent GQM for 1944 . Had a job trying to tie up the locations on Google Earth I guess the locations on the combat report must be given some leeway being identified from aircraft cockpits in combat . If the combat reports are correct then Horn's report of the Ju 88 at Bretigny cannot be one of the 3 above
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  #19  
Old 3rd July 2022, 16:46
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Stig,

Unfortunately I have no other info than that from the NVMs. Therefore cannot confirm what Jan Horn says, although his guess seems probable and plausible or at least possible.

Matti
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  #20  
Old 3rd July 2022, 17:05
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Thanks Matti
Cheers
Stig
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