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Old 30th June 2022, 11:41
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Please can anybody identify the unit to which three Ju 88 shot down by a 198 Sqn Ranger mission over central France on 13 January 1944 belonged? The photo at the link below appears to show one of them:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205023274

As far as I can tell from https://www.rcafassociation.ca/herit...ry-to-30-june/ and the equivalent data for 1943, J M G Plamondon shot down only one Ju 88 during his flying career, on 13 January 1944, so this (photo) is presumably it. Plamondon himself was shot down (by flak) in October 1944.

The Luftflotte 3 loss tables confirm that three Ju 88 were shot down in air combat on 13 January, but unfortunately I have neither Trendle's nor Balss's January 1944 volumes, and the Kampfgeschwader unit histories that I have shed no light on the matter (beyond making it unlikely that the Ju 88s belonged to several specific units). And an article in 'Avions' No.77 appears to discount the possibility that the Ju 88s belonged to training units.

Please can anybody confirm the Luftwaffe unit that lost three Ju 88s over central France on 13 January - I suspect they all belonged to the same unit if 198 Sqn caught them together and brought them down in short order.

Many thanks,

Simon
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Old 30th June 2022, 11:53
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Simon: 198 Sqn claimed 2 Goeland, Ar 96, 2 Bf 109 and 3 Ju 88s. All I can tell you it was not KG 2, KG 6 or KG 54. Maybe Matti can come up with something?
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Old 30th June 2022, 12:20
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Thanks Chris,

Using the tables at Michael Holm's website and taking into account known Ju 88 losses either in Steinbock raids or to other causes, I'm thinking the most likely candidate is II./KG 30. Apparently, they lost seven Ju 88s to the enemy in January. But only one was lost during a Steinbock raid. Two more were lost to enemy action soon after the Gruppe arrived in Italy and carried out operations against Anzio during the last few days of the month (Shores et al, MAW Vol 4), which would leave four unaccounted for. I can't find a 'surplus' of losses (i.e. three Ju 88s destroyed by enemy action that I can't account for otherwise) in any other unit that was based in Luftflotte 3's area of responsibility in January 1944, so I think they probably were II./KG 30 aircraft. But if somebody has Trendle or Balss to hand and can confirm, that would be helpful.

Of course, it's a shame there is no KG 30 history that covers this period (as far as I know). That would make life simpler!

Thanks again.
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Old 30th June 2022, 12:45
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

I have only two Ju 88 losses on 13 Jan 1944:
1944-01-13, 11./KG 6, Ju 88, 0003, 6 km südöstlich Jumeauville, 9 km südöstlich Mantes-la-Ville
Flugzeugführer Uffz Müller, Karl, +
Kampfbeobachter Obgfr Schlößer, Wolfgang, +
Bordfunker Uffz Werner, Heinz, +
Bordschütze Obgfr Haidl, Anton, +
Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %.
1944-01-13, 11./KG 6, Ju 88, 4391, Bei Méré, 23 km westlich Versailles
Flugzeugführer Fw Schüley, Friedrich, +
Bordfunker Uffz Schmidt, Johann, verletzt
Notlandung infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %.

Matti
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Old 30th June 2022, 12:56
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

I was wrong-the Goeland was from 16./KG 2 transiting from Achmer to Laon IV./KG 6 losses are in not in the KG 6 book I have but one on 8 January 1944 is (a loss to 174 Sqn) which is strange. All three were on training flights
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Old 30th June 2022, 13:13
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Thanks Matti, the two 11./KG 6 losses are in the right area - I believe the 198 Sqn claims were near Septeuil (west of Paris). As noted above, Luftflotte 3 loss tables have three Ju 88s lost in air combat that day, which fits with the RAF claim. But your evidence points in the direction of 11./KG 6 being the unit involved. Much appreciated.

Simon
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Old 30th June 2022, 13:17
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

And https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/kampf/bivkg6.html has eight Ju A-4s or A-14s in IV./KG 6 lost to enemy action in January 1944, which reinforces the probability.
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Old 30th June 2022, 13:18
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

If there was a third Ju 88 lost, it did not suffer crew casualties. The GQM no longer exists so we cannot confirm this and if there had been casualties, Matti would have had them from the NVM
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Old 30th June 2022, 13:39
Simon Trew Simon Trew is offline
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Thanks again. So a reasonable chance that three 11./KG 2 Ju 88s lost, one with its entire crew, one crash-landing with one killed and one wounded, and one lost but crew survived uninjured. Or maybe just an over-claim by 198 Sqn and the third Ju 88 identified as lost by Luftflotte 3 that day went down somewhere else.

All very helpful and much appreciated.
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Old 30th June 2022, 14:49
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Re: Identity of three Ju 88 shot down by 198 Sqn Typhoons 13 January 1944?

Still too many possibilities for me-not probabilities. Looking at the combat reports, you might be able to work something out-4 miles west of St Leger for Dall, La Roche Guyon for Macdonald and Septeuil for Plamondon. Septeuil and the German locations of Jumeauville and Méré are close but St Leger and La Roche Guyon are not
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