5 October 1944 - claim for a P_38/F-5 C

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

on 6 October 1944 a reconnaissance F-5 C, serial 42 67128, "Dot & Dash", was shot down over the Ijseelmeer, acc. to a private note by an Me 262, which - if this was true - could only have belonged to Kdo. Nowotny that was just in the process of its build-up, the first known claims being filed one day later on 7 October 1944.

Has anybody out there reliable information concerning this claim and is willing to share it with me ? Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

KR

Jochen Prien

[Frank Olynyk]

Jochen,
MACR 9254 covers the loss of F-5C-1LO 42-67128. The loss is dated October 6, 1944. Pilot was 2nd Lt Claude C Murray, Jr. He took off at 1253, flying with another F-5 as far as Munster, where they were to split up. Near Arnheim they started to drift apart. About 1410 the other pilot was jumped by an enemy fighter (type not stated or described). After warning Murray, he evaded the fighter, but was unable to contact Murray again. Murray is listed as a POW on Oct 6, released at the end of the war. They were flying at 27,500 feet.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[Jochen Prien]

Many thanks, Frank !

So the question remains - who or what shot him down ? I know of no German claim for a P-38 / F-5 under this date.

Cheers

Jochen

[Karoband]

Hi Jochen,

On October 6, 1944, Georg-Peter Eder of Kommando Nowotny claimed a P-38 according to the Luftwaffe Victory Claims on the Asisbiz.com site.

regards,

Jim Geens

[Martin Gleeson]

Jochen,

This is not my area of study but I have long been interested in the P-38 and Me 262.
The very fine 7th PG history 'EYES OF THE EIGHTH' by Patricia Fussell Keen records the other pilot, Lt. Robert W. Hall, on return stated he (Hall) had been attacked by a "fast twin-engine fighter" and that 'Intelligence' (sic) "confirmed that the plane was a jet-propelled Me 262". Murray at some later time described his experiences at length of being shot down and especially as an evader. Murray indicates he was shot down by 'jets' rather than piston-engine fighters, but in no great detail.

'THE ME 262 COMBAT DIARY' (2nd edition) by John Foreman and S.E. Harvey is somewhat unclear. They state Murray was shot down by a Me 262, possibly Eder, "who is known to have claimed a Lightning early in the month" and "However, another source suggests that it may be a rare kill by I./KG(J)51". In a list of Me 262 pilot claims Eder is shown under 6 October 1944 claiming a Lightning. The same list has him claiming two B-17s on October 4th, but his unit is given as 'Ekdo 262'. Perhaps he was still with the latter unit on October 6th ?
I have no idea of the author's source material for the above, but they certainly researched the subject for many years.

One small correction. The F-5C-1-LO 42-67128 was named 'Dot + Dash' with very elaborate paintwork to go with it. (A photo of this aircraft appears in 'LIGHTNING STRIKES', July 2011 in a piece by Steve Blake describing the history of this very machine).

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Jochen Prien]

Dear Jim, dear Martin,

many thanks for your valuable contributions; I will first try to follow the Eder lead before diving into - at least for me - totally unknown depths of KG(J)/51.

From all we have so far it is clear that Murray was shot down by an a/c, very likely an Me 262, the identity of which remains unclear and all the more so since we have no German claim for this F-5.

Thanks again and

best

Jochen

[Jaap Woortman]

Jochen,

Maybe this helps.
7-10-44 Heinrich A. Haeffner. Aus meinem Tagebuch bei der 2./KG 51
Wir hatten heute wieder öfters myo. Oblt.Cziruski und Obfw.Kaiser fliegen einige Einsätze gegen Jäger und Aufklärer.
Bei ihren Angriffen hatten sie oft Ladehemmungen mit ihren 4 MK 108 im Kurvenkampf.
Die Geschosse verklemmten sich durch ihre Schwere in den Gurten!! Die Y-Führung hatte aber gut geklappt.
Oberstleutnant Meister, Kommodore des KG.51, schulte heute Offiziere vom Geschwaderstab auf Me 262.
Uffz.Kroll machte mit der "Anton" bei der Landung einen bösen Bruch.

Jaap

[Jaap Woortman]

Jochen,

In support of the above mentioned a page from Jan Horn's Fluhrschaden Geschwader.

Jaap.

[Merlin]

post #7 and #8 are referring to a P-38 kill of Oblt. Georg Czurusky south of Würzburg on 7.10.44. Czurusky led the 1./KG 51, which was still under training at Lechfeld during early October 1944.

This could not be the P-38 shot down over the Ijseelmeer on 6.10.44. This kill could have only been achieved by a pilot from 3./KG 51 based at Rheine-Hopsten or rom Kommando Nowotny based at Rheine.

[Jochen Prien]

To John Manrho:

John,

many thanks for your message which was sent to an old account; please contact me through my current e-mail address: jochen@kjprien.de

Looking forward to Hearing from you.

KR

Jochen